|
|
Post by Occam’s Razor on Feb 5, 2024 7:15:21 GMT
Why do we need a technical director Mundell Sir Alex Ferguson didn’t have one. Neither did Alan Curbishley. Or Bob Paisley. Or Brian Clough. The manager should be the No.1 - he should set the direction & tempo as he sees fit, and recruit accordingly. Fergie once said that he ensured that nobody at Man United earned more than he did - it was linked to his authority. Does our Technical Director earn more than our manager under SE7 ? You can’t even claim that having a Technical Director is about continuity - there has been a marked difference in style even between Holden & Appleton, let alone Jones. |
|
|
|
Post by Occam’s Razor on Feb 5, 2024 7:23:04 GMT
I thought you’d have figured out by now that I believe that ‘digs’ say a lot more about those doing the ‘digging’ than those being ‘dug out’!! Or is this just your sense of humour at work? Nevertheless, here’s an excerpt from a comment I posted on Friday evening, in reply to one of your posts. I know you read it because you liked it. “Third, I’d be equally surprised if we don’t continue to operate with both a Technical Director and a Director of Performance with Nathan Jones operating as a Head Coach, even if they fudge his title. It would be a complete volte face to give Jones complete control over all football matters and revert to a traditional structure and that would be an odd thing to do. This does not mean Andy Scott is the right man for the role he’s in, but that’s a completely different question. See above.” I haven’t changed my view. I expect Jones will work with a Technical Director. That will be with either Andy Scott or his successor. Very succinct and precise MundellI'd add that my views haven't changed either: We needed Jones confirmed; we need to see more of the squad plus whatever changes Jones introduced to make a call. 20 years ago we were in with a chance of qualifying for Europe before Scott Parker left for Chelsea. Unfortunately our club has gone through several relegations since then plus approximately 20 managers. Perhaps the real challenge is the conflict between on the one hand conventional wisdom, its numerous flawed / outdated beliefs and assumptions and its very strong outcome bias, with a more measured, process based perspective on the other. When the latter falters, supporters of the traditional approach create pressure to turn back the clock. We saw it with Duchatelet time and time again, and yet those same protesters were more than happy to celebrate promotion at Wembley five years ago. Those who write the narrative must have suffered significant cognitive dissonance as Bauer scored that last minute winner! But within hours the strap line came out: "we won promotion despite Duchatelet"! Today the fans and investors share the exact same interests: stable, sustainable growth with a return to the Championship at the earliest opportunity. But some prefer a return to a distant past as they feel more comfortable with that. We should all wish for a high performing SMT who are fully accountable to the investors. Questioning the structure six months after the takeover appears a tad premature. By the way, this is a well understood challenge in many fields. It’s not a criticism of anyone. And let's not confuse / conflate the structure with the activities and delivery of individuals. With that in mind life would be so much simpler if we were winning every other game - but we're not. We're losing, often by small margins, but still losing. Let's hope we've just recruited a "lucky general" to see us through this next phase. A slight contradiction there Kevin, in that you criticise fans for dwelling on the past, and then yourself use the spurious example of Scott Parker being sold. As for Roland Duchatelet…. your rose tinted glasses are getting steamed up. - interfering with team selection, - foisting dud players on our managers, - the negative 1% and fans are customers, - having fans arrested (CL) for forum posts, - Meire , Fraeye, Driesen etc . That was a horrible interregnum in the club’s history, only rescued by the managerial genius of Lee Bowyer. |
|
|
|
Post by Mundell on Feb 5, 2024 7:37:57 GMT
Occam’s Razor It’s about specialisation and division of labour. Liverpool and Manchester City both have Technical Directors or their equivalent. We need a Technical Director because we want to succeed. Nobody is saying the Manager or Head Coach isn’t involved in the recruitment process. Neither Liverpool or Manchester City sign players their managers won’t play, but the primary focus of Klopp and Guardiola is on coaching and managing their respective teams. That’s an intensive and full time job. That principle is applicable wherever the resources allow it. Sport constantly evolves. There was a time when a tennis player using a two handed back hand was written off. Now it’s essential. When T20 was introduced in cricket the assumption was it would kill off spinners, yet today the most successful bowlers in T20 are leg spinners. Tradition is fine and should be respected, but winning is what matters most and that means adapting and developing. Nostalgic pessimism with its attachment to the past is a barrier to progress. We’ve got a progressive ownership group for the first time in at least 15 years. They’ll make mistakes and will need to adjust along the way, but I hope they never choose to turn around and go backwards.
|
|
|
|
Post by returnofpiestalker on Feb 5, 2024 8:14:23 GMT
Occam’s Razor It’s about specialisation and division of labour. Liverpool and Manchester City both have Technical Directors or their equivalent. We want a Technical Director because we want to succeed. Nobody is saying the Manager or Head Coach isn’t involved in the recruitment process. Neither Liverpool or Manchester City sign players their managers won’t play, but the primary focus of Klopp and Guardiola is on coaching and managing their respective teams. That’s an intensive and full time job. That principle is applicable wherever the resources allow it. Sport constantly evolves. There was a time when a tennis player using a two handed back hand was written off. Now it’s essential. When T20 was introduced in cricket the assumption was it would kill off spinners, yet today the most successful bowlers in T20 are leg spinners. Tradition is fine and should be respected, but winning is what matters most and that means adapting and developing. Nostalgic pessimism with its attachment to the past is a barrier to progress. We’ve got a progressive ownership group for the first time in at least 15 years. They’ll make mistakes and will need to adjust along the way, but I hope they never choose to turn around and go backwards. Let’s get a manager who can set up a team playing appropriate football for the division and start moving forward. Simple things first. People have a tendency to massively over complicate things and this is why they fail. |
|
|
|
Post by Mundell on Feb 5, 2024 8:16:30 GMT
Occam’s Razor It’s about specialisation and division of labour. Liverpool and Manchester City both have Technical Directors or their equivalent. We want a Technical Director because we want to succeed. Nobody is saying the Manager or Head Coach isn’t involved in the recruitment process. Neither Liverpool or Manchester City sign players their managers won’t play, but the primary focus of Klopp and Guardiola is on coaching and managing their respective teams. That’s an intensive and full time job. That principle is applicable wherever the resources allow it. Sport constantly evolves. There was a time when a tennis player using a two handed back hand was written off. Now it’s essential. When T20 was introduced in cricket the assumption was it would kill off spinners, yet today the most successful bowlers in T20 are leg spinners. Tradition is fine and should be respected, but winning is what matters most and that means adapting and developing. Nostalgic pessimism with its attachment to the past is a barrier to progress. We’ve got a progressive ownership group for the first time in at least 15 years. They’ll make mistakes and will need to adjust along the way, but I hope they never choose to turn around and go backwards. Let’s get a manager who can set up a team playing appropriate football for the division and start moving forward. Simple things first. People have a tendency to massively over complicate things and this is why they fail. Isn’t that exactly what Nathan Jones has been hired to do? |
|
|
|
Post by Mundell on Feb 5, 2024 8:21:39 GMT
PS The last two owners (I’m excluding ESI) failed because they underestimated the task at hand not because they over complicated it. The recognition that the challenge is not simple and straightforward is the first step towards developing what might eventually appear to be a simple and straightforward solution.
|
|
|
|
Post by Occam’s Razor on Feb 5, 2024 8:57:02 GMT
Occam’s Razor It’s about specialisation and division of labour. Liverpool and Manchester City both have Technical Directors or their equivalent. We want a Technical Director because we want to succeed. Nobody is saying the Manager or Head Coach isn’t involved in the recruitment process. Neither Liverpool or Manchester City sign players their managers won’t play, but the primary focus of Klopp and Guardiola is on coaching and managing their respective teams. That’s an intensive and full time job. That principle is applicable wherever the resources allow it. Sport constantly evolves. There was a time when a tennis player using a two handed back hand was written off. Now it’s essential. When T20 was introduced in cricket the assumption was it would kill off spinners, yet today the most successful bowlers in T20 are leg spinners. Tradition is fine and should be respected, but winning is what matters most and that means adapting and developing. Nostalgic pessimism with its attachment to the past is a barrier to progress. We’ve got a progressive ownership group for the first time in at least 15 years. They’ll make mistakes and will need to adjust along the way, but I hope they never choose to turn around and go backwards. Let’s get a manager who can set up a team playing appropriate football for the division and start moving forward. Simple things first. People have a tendency to massively over complicate things and this is why they fail. Perfectly put. We’ve got a Technical Director and a Diversity Director, yet sit 19th in League One. A classic case of the cart before the horse. |
|
|
|
Post by watameires on Feb 5, 2024 9:07:36 GMT
Very succinct and precise MundellI'd add that my views haven't changed either: We needed Jones confirmed; we need to see more of the squad plus whatever changes Jones introduced to make a call. 20 years ago we were in with a chance of qualifying for Europe before Scott Parker left for Chelsea. Unfortunately our club has gone through several relegations since then plus approximately 20 managers. Perhaps the real challenge is the conflict between on the one hand conventional wisdom, its numerous flawed / outdated beliefs and assumptions and its very strong outcome bias, with a more measured, process based perspective on the other. When the latter falters, supporters of the traditional approach create pressure to turn back the clock. We saw it with Duchatelet time and time again, and yet those same protesters were more than happy to celebrate promotion at Wembley five years ago. Those who write the narrative must have suffered significant cognitive dissonance as Bauer scored that last minute winner! But within hours the strap line came out: "we won promotion despite Duchatelet"! Today the fans and investors share the exact same interests: stable, sustainable growth with a return to the Championship at the earliest opportunity. But some prefer a return to a distant past as they feel more comfortable with that. We should all wish for a high performing SMT who are fully accountable to the investors. Questioning the structure six months after the takeover appears a tad premature. By the way, this is a well understood challenge in many fields. It’s not a criticism of anyone. And let's not confuse / conflate the structure with the activities and delivery of individuals. With that in mind life would be so much simpler if we were winning every other game - but we're not. We're losing, often by small margins, but still losing. Let's hope we've just recruited a "lucky general" to see us through this next phase. A slight contradiction there Kevin, in that you criticise fans for dwelling on the past, and then yourself use the spurious example of Scott Parker being sold. As for Roland Duchatelet…. your rose tinted glasses are getting steamed up. - interfering with team selection, - foisting dud players on our managers, - the negative 1% and fans are customers, - having fans arrested (CL) for forum posts, - Meire , Fraeye, Driesen etc . That was a horrible interregnum in the club’s history, only rescued by the managerial genius of Lee Bowyer. You mention rose tinted glasses then state “managerial genius of Lee Bowyer” - wow! He was a dud who got lucky in having a squad of players above the standard of the division |
|
|
|
Post by watameires on Feb 5, 2024 9:57:23 GMT
The problem is with execution (Scott) not structure (DoF)
|
|
|
|
Post by Occam’s Razor on Feb 5, 2024 10:02:53 GMT
Bowyer a dud who got lucky …. I have heard it all now.
|
|
|
|
Post by watameires on Feb 5, 2024 10:26:01 GMT
Bowyer a dud who got lucky …. I have heard it all now. That was my reaction to “tactical genius” 😃 We may have to agree to disagree |
|
|
|
Post by earlpurple on Feb 5, 2024 10:33:21 GMT
If Bowyer had the right players to achieve promotion, it's a praise to himself and Steve Gallen who put that squad together, as well as to Roland Duchatalet who gave him them the budget to do it.
Then of course he was not given a big enough budget as Roland did not agree to the model of making however many losses were allowed in the Championship, but still we were competitive in the league until we got a number of injuries to key players and had Roland stayed as the owner the whole year we'd probably have stayed up, and may even have kept Conor Gallagher but the ESI takeover clearly got in the way, and even then we were unlucky to go down.
The summer of 2020 we were still owned by ESI and didn't have much of a transfer window. When Sandgaard "saved" us, he gave us a budget to build a competitive team and we started well then again got a number of injuries and went on a terrible run conceding loads of goals. Bowyer left and saved Birmingham from the drop. Adkins did well at first but clearly it was Bowyer leaving that has led to the shift in where we are now as a club. Steve Gallen did not perform well without Bowyer there which leads me to believe they worked well together as a team.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mundell on Feb 5, 2024 10:47:13 GMT
Let’s get a manager who can set up a team playing appropriate football for the division and start moving forward. Simple things first. People have a tendency to massively over complicate things and this is why they fail. Perfectly put. We’ve got a Technical Director and a Diversity Director, yet sit 19th in League One. A classic case of the cart before the horse. If I’ve understood correctly what you’re saying Occam’s Razor it’s that we should focus first on recruiting a good head coach/manager, on winning more matches and getting up the League. We’ll then worry about the other stuff later. The fundamental flaw with that kind of sequential development is the problem of time. It takes time to build. Foundations need to be put in place. Even if we assume that some of what is being built isn’t absolutely necessary in League One it can still provide a competitive advantage. Much more importantly though the structures and processes now being put in place might prove to be absolutely essential once we return to the Championship. If we wait until we’re promoted before we establish them though it will be too late. The Board could say “OK, let’s forget it. We’re spending money we don’t need to spend. It’s all too complicated. Let’s fire the hangers on and make the bet that if we spend some money and appoint the right manager we’ll win promotion”. There’s no guarantee that would work, of course, but even if it did the likelihood is we’d soon find ourselves right back where we started. Lee Bowyer may or not have been a genius. He may alternatively have been the beneficiary of a very significant budget for wages and some exceptional players. Either way, he’s now managing Montserrat not Aston Villa and we’re struggling back in League One. The club has not been progressively managed for the best part of twenty years. Curbishley, Murray and Varney achieved extraordinary things. They were traditionalists though not modernisers. The stadium apart they did not build the foundations for future success. Powell and Varney likewise. Duchatelet was more forward thinking, but he just didn’t understand how to implement. Sandgaard wisely sought the counsel of Rasmus Ankersen and ought to have understood the nature of the challenge. He thought it was easy though and his execution too was amateurish. When SE7 arrived I’m sure they found a bare cupboard with few if any of the ingredients for future success in place. That’s what they’re trying to address. Results matter though and they’ve not been anywhere near good enough. The challenge with any change is to achieve it without damaging the here now and that’s where SE7’s plans have been blown off course. Hopefully, the appointment of Nathan Jones will address that, but this is not a time to change the destination or the strategy to get there. I’m aware that for most fans this is of little interest. They’re focused purely on results and will believe it when we see it. That’s fair enough, but it doesn’t mean my perspective is wrong though. |
|
|
|
Post by Occam’s Razor on Feb 5, 2024 11:04:57 GMT
MundellI think you are confusing a job title with a strategy. SE7 Partners SMT have no strategy. They have gone from Holden to Appleton to Jones in the space of 12 months. I’m also hearing rumblings that our current Technical Director has had his wings clipped in the past week - no bad thing.
|
|
|
|
Post by earlpurple on Feb 5, 2024 12:09:41 GMT
They outlined a strategy of having a squad of 24 players with 8 "elite" (top notch, presumably high waged) players, 8 "solid" players who are good for the team and do the basics and 8 "academy" players. Only 11 start on the pitch, so that would ideally be all 8 elite players and 3 solid players but there is always some rotation and the others, including academy players, would get games as required, the latter maybe in the minor cups.
Loans did not seem to play a part in that strategy. Obviously we might want some of our academy players out on loan to League Two and National League (and if we get into the championship, to League One) to get more experience and improve for when they return. In the same way, if we can attract the right loan players, we'd want a few in our team. We had that in the past but have not attracted any this season and that's part of the reason behind our failure, and I don't see how it really fits in with the strategy, because they want to develop our own players, but in reality Jesurun Rak-Sayki is a key reason why last season we performed a lot better than we are this season, and Josh Cullen and others a key reason why we were able to achieve promotion in 2018-19.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mundell on Feb 5, 2024 16:25:34 GMT
Mundell I think you are confusing a job title with a strategy. SE7 Partners SMT have no strategy. They have gone from Holden to Appleton to Jones in the space of 12 months. I’m also hearing rumblings that our current Technical Director has had his wings clipped in the past week - no bad thing. No, I’m not confused Occam’s Razor I simply have a different perspective to the one you have. I’m reminded of the parable of the blindmen and an elephant. Link here. Based on where I’ve felt the elephant I believe my vision of the entire animal is the right one and you believe yours is based on the part of the elephant you’ve touched. The moral of the parable is that, at least for now, we need to recognise that each vision is potentially valid based on our different perspectives. Clipboard Clives aren’t always wrong. Or always right. Fortunately, in our case, in time, we’ll get to see the entire elephant as it is revealed over the coming weeks, months and seasons so that in time we’ll know what it is we are dealing with, though we’ll have to wait a little longer than Saturday at 5pm. From my perspective at least, this is not about winning an argument or proving who is right or wrong, it’s about trying to understand what’s actually going on. Hopefully, we’ll both be willing and able to adapt our views as new bits of the elephant come into view and we should probably leave it there for now. |
|
|
|
Post by wiggyatthebackpost on Feb 10, 2024 17:27:50 GMT
Just fuck off Scott you cunt. Charlie boy put the band together he needs to make a decision mate.Scott is shit I'd even take Gallen over him anyway |
|
|
|
Post by Occam’s Razor on Feb 10, 2024 17:33:07 GMT
Just fuck off Scott you cunt. A complete charlatan. It should be impossible to put together a squad that is as bad as this. Bakinson 💦💦💦💦💦💦💦💦 Tennai 💦💦💦💦💦💦💦💦💦 Edun 💦💦💦💦💦💦💦💦💦💦 Ladapo 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ |
|
|
|
Post by watameires on Feb 10, 2024 17:40:47 GMT
Blame can’t just reside with Scott - Charlie and James (Jim) also.
Hope they are told
|
|
|
|
Post by aaronaldo on Feb 10, 2024 17:47:47 GMT
There’s been red flags along the way with Andy Scott. For me, not replacing CBT and then letting Fraser go without replacing him was the nail in the coffin. He clearly doesn’t know what this squad needs. We’ve got the most unbalanced squad I’ve even seen.
I said it back when we first starting playing 3-5-2 that our wingbacks just simply aren’t good enough. Everyone who’s watched us could see that. The wingbacks are so important in this formation and we don’t have enough quality there.
Everyone we’ve signed are unfit. None were players who were playing regularly in their teams. Apart from Ramsay maybe?
I don’t get why we think Bakinson can play going forwards. He’s just not got the feet for it. Might be due to fitness but likely more to do with the fact he’s a DM!
|
|
|
|
Post by aaronaldo on Feb 10, 2024 17:52:37 GMT
Blame can’t just reside with Scott - Charlie and James (Jim) also. Hope they are told Charlie’s remit is the commercial side, not the football side. He must be regretting the Netflix series so much by now. |
|
|
|
Post by aucklandaddick on Feb 10, 2024 20:26:16 GMT
I know I have banged on boringly about this on many occasions but the owners really needed to work
out the Scott situation earlier and then go out and head hunt the best recruitment team they could get with proven track records and excellant contacts in the game
Has worked well for other clubs like Bolton, Plymouth etc…,
Probably the most important position in the club and unfortunately we got this one wrong
|
|
|
|
Post by roburwash on Feb 10, 2024 20:39:09 GMT
Will no one rid me of this meddlesome Technical Director?
|
|
|
|
Post by ploppy on Feb 10, 2024 21:21:51 GMT
And no one mention the total clusterfuck that Charlie Methane has put together.
He is responsible for this shit show.
|
|
|
|
Post by wellingaddick on Feb 10, 2024 21:39:14 GMT
We have really reached the stage, where more Scott means more decline.
|
|
|
|
Post by clarky on Feb 10, 2024 22:36:09 GMT
And no one mention the total clusterfuck that Charlie Methane has put together. He is responsible for this shit show. 100%, but he gets off lightly. He is responsible for putting Rodwell and Scott there in the first place so the buck starts with him. Called him out from the start but got criticised abd still do. |
|
|
|
Post by se7sm on Feb 11, 2024 8:30:18 GMT
in my opinion I Think some of us are missing something here Scott’s job as part of the whole SMT is to slash the wage bill, and the only way to do that is offer shit contracts Dobson ,and sell off your high earners or loan them out.make no mistake if leaburn and aneke was fit we would be looking to sell them .must of been gutted when he got injured.well done Scott but I do think the blame net needs casting a bit further.
|
|
|
|
Post by mikebassett on Feb 11, 2024 8:37:28 GMT
in my opinion I Think some of us are missing something here Scott’s job as part of the whole SMT is to slash the wage bill, and the only way to do that is offer shit contracts Dobson ,and sell off your high earners or loan them out.make no mistake if leaburn and aneke was fit we would be looking to sell them .must of been gutted when he got injured.well done Scott but I do think the blame net needs casting a bit further. This. Salmon Pants and the board are no angels and Scott is a convenient scapegoat that keeps the flak off of them. |
|
|
|
Post by sevenoaks on Feb 11, 2024 8:45:55 GMT
Can someone explain, what was the point in Nathan Jones, who I guess hasn't come cheap and he has been given this crap lot of players to do miracles with?.
Did he do hid due diligence on this lot?.
Was he told to peddle the lie of George Dobson injured,.🤔
|
|
|
|
Post by Occam’s Razor on Feb 11, 2024 9:06:38 GMT
Andy Scott’s relationship with George Dobson broke down in pre season, when the skipper objected on behalf of the squad to changes that the SMT has made to the player’s bonus scheme.
I know this will upset a handful of stats - driven poobahs, who for some reason are more interested in stats and processes than results, but this is another avoidable own goal to be laid squarely at the feet of the Technical Director.
Scott needs removing.
An overnight poll of our fans show that around 90% hold him primarily responsible for the club facing relegation to Div 4.
|
|
