One down, One to go - Andy Scott Out!!

[reamsofverse]

Jan 25, 2024 8:00:36 GMT Mundell said:

Jan 25, 2024 7:12:57 GMT watameires said:

I reckon he was called in to discuss mutual agreement for his departure - that was then interpreted as he’s gone - then he decided no I want to be sacked for more money…

But that implies that Appleton was lying through his teeth at Monday’s press conference. Do you believe that’s what was happening? In any event, it doesn’t excuse going public before his departure had been agreed.

He was. He verbally agreed to a mutual on Saturday night. A statement was being prepared for release on Sunday morning then shortly before it was, he backtracked and said, you want me out, you'll have to sack me!!

He got Tuesday because it came so soon after the weekend. A mutual departure is less formal than a straight dismissal so more legals are involved which take longer. It's why he got Tuesday night. He would have been gone at some point this week no matter what Tuesday's result was but they could have done without the game itself while steps were being taken to relieve him from his duties. It didn't help at all in the grand scheme of things. It made the board look like they were dragging it out uneccesarily which was not the case.

[earlpurple]

What, exactly, is Andy Scott's role at Charlton Athletic?

Head of coaching, head of player recruitment, or head of everything football related (I thought that was Jim Rodwell).

I would consider hiring Alan Curbishley, not as first team head coach but as director of football at Charlton Athletic. He can remain doing Charlton TV until the end of the season as well, after which Sky will be streaming all our league games.

[aaronaldo]

Jan 25, 2024 10:39:49 GMT reamsofverse said:

Jan 25, 2024 8:00:36 GMT Mundell said:

But that implies that Appleton was lying through his teeth at Monday’s press conference. Do you believe that’s what was happening? In any event, it doesn’t excuse going public before his departure had been agreed.

He was. He verbally agreed to a mutual on Saturday night. A statement was being prepared for release on Sunday morning then shortly before it was, he backtracked and said, you want me out, you'll have to sack me!!

He got Tuesday because it came so soon after the weekend. A mutual departure is less formal than a straight dismissal so more legals are involved which take longer. It's why he got Tuesday night. He would have been gone at some point this week no matter what Tuesday's result was but they could have done without the game itself while steps were being taken to relieve him from his duties. It didn't help at all in the grand scheme of things. It made the board look like they were dragging it out uneccesarily which was not the case.

This makes more sense. I felt Appletons answers in the pre-conference were very 'political'. He may not have lied as such but only answered part of the question.

"Did you take training this morning?" "Yes". If they then followed up with "Did you take the whole training session?" He may not have been able to answer that as easily, if the rumours going around are true that he wasn't there for all of it.

[Mundell]

Jan 25, 2024 10:39:49 GMT reamsofverse said:

Jan 25, 2024 8:00:36 GMT Mundell said:

But that implies that Appleton was lying through his teeth at Monday’s press conference. Do you believe that’s what was happening? In any event, it doesn’t excuse going public before his departure had been agreed.

He was. He verbally agreed to a mutual on Saturday night. A statement was being prepared for release on Sunday morning then shortly before it was, he backtracked and said, you want me out, you'll have to sack me!!

He got Tuesday because it came so soon after the weekend. A mutual departure is less formal than a straight dismissal so more legals are involved which take longer. It's why he got Tuesday night. He would have been gone at some point this week no matter what Tuesday's result was but they could have done without the game itself while steps were being taken to relieve him from his duties. It didn't help at all in the grand scheme of things. It made the board look like they were dragging it out uneccesarily which was not the case.

If that’s true Paul (and I don’t doubt that’s what you’ve been told), then I’m happy to take back everything I’ve said and admit I’ve been wrong. I’d also have to say that it places Michael Appleton in a very bad light, not least since he had no need to attend that press conference and nothing to gain from doing so. Indeed, if he has been caught in a lie then that could be quite damaging to him. Ironically, it was such a good performance it reflects very badly on him. How could anyone trust anything he said, including new employers and players? It was still very unprofessional of the club to prebrief and if they can they ought to find a way to officially communicate what’s happened here. 

[Occam’s Razor]

Mundell

Managers tell white lies at pre match press conferences every week, particularly over player fitness issues.

[watameires]

The SLT could and should have fired him before the match and didn’t because they tried to do it on the cheap (ie through mutual agreement) - Applepie called their bluff took the flack at the match then got fired and got the money he felt he was due

The legal paperwork is a red herring imo

[Mundell]

Jan 25, 2024 12:43:18 GMT watameires said:

The SLT could and should have fired him before the match and didn’t because they tried to do it on the cheap (ie through mutual agreement) - Applepie called their bluff took the flack at the match then got fired and got the money he felt he was due

The legal paperwork is a red herring imo

In some ways this shambolic episode is hilarious. If they seriously thought they could say to Appleton, “We want you to leave Michael (you’re being fired and everyone will know you’ve been fired), but we’d like you to agree to a departure by mutual agreement because it will cost us less in compensation (i.e. you’ll be worse off)”, then it beggars belief. What possible incentive did he have to agree to that? None is the answer. If having decided to fire him they weren’t then able to do so as initially planned because they hadn’t allowed for the possibility (certainty) that he might actually refuse to make an entirely voluntary financial contribution to the club’s coffers, then that’s even more bizarre. Thing is, though it beggars belief, I’m beginning to think it might actually be believable. Shambles. 

[kings hill addick]

Jan 25, 2024 8:22:25 GMT Mundell said:

Jan 25, 2024 8:10:46 GMT revilo said:

I do believe he was lying through his teeth. Why do people think that managers are going to be truthful to fans - especially Appleton who didn't care what the fans thought. He lied to save face, to protect his public image.

Because very, very few people are capable of looking into a camera and telling bare faced lies. That’s a very different thing from not telling the truth which many people do with equanimity.

PS If he had lied and a member of the CAFC Board or SMT subsequently said he'd been told on Saturday evening (as they might well do in an attempt to salvage their own credibility) then his reputation for honesty and integrity would be shattered. He had nothing to gain from lying and a lot to lose. What he thinks of Charlton fans (or football fans in general) is neither here nor there. 

I also suspect that had he lied it would have been grounds for dismissal for gross misconduct - with no pay off. Remember that he wasn't lying directly to fans he was lying to the press.

I can't imagine there would be any defence against gross misconduct if you lie to the press and undermine the company.

[reamsofverse]

Totally disagree with the responses. The last thing Appleton needed was another sacking on his CV. He knew results were not good enough so a mutual consent decision would be a damage limitation one as far as he was concerned. It was agreed but then the next day he's still at the club and 24 hours on again he's taking the Northampton game before being sacked officially.

Not sure how that reflects badly on the board to be honest. They gave MA the opportunity to walk away and keep his managerial reputation intact.

[watameires]

My theory is just that … a theory. But do people honestly believe mutual consent departures on a managers cv look better than a sacking?

[Mundell]

Jan 25, 2024 14:46:36 GMT reamsofverse said:

Totally disagree with the responses. The last thing Appleton needed was another sacking on his CV. He knew results were not good enough so a mutual consent decision would be a damage limitation one as far as he was concerned. It was agreed but then the next day he's still at the club and 24 hours on again he's taking the Northampton game before being sacked officially.

Not sure how that reflects badly on the board to be honest. They gave MA the opportunity to walk away and keep his managerial reputation intact.

I know what you’re saying Paul, but whatever the announcement had said, it was clear he was being sacked. Saying otherwise wasn’t going to convince anyone or help Appleton get another job. The board were trying to save money, were being entirely unrealistic and made a complete hash of it. That’s my take on it anyway. 

[earlpurple]

Football club managers / head coaches are sacked all the time, particularly after poor runs like the one we have just had. It's a mangerial merry-go-round, and in the podcast Charlie Methven said that when someone chooses to be a football manager they know what the score is.

Did we handle it right after Edun's sending off, because most managers, with about 7 minutes remaining at the time, would potentially have put on a sub to cover his position left of defence sacrificing maybe an attacking player, knowing we're unlikely to win but ensuring we do not get caught out.

A minute or so later we were indeed caught out down their right wing and everyone except the referee, including all Charlton fans, thinks that was a penalty. And then at the end, although it was mostly Gillesphey and partly Edmonds-Green to blame for the winning goal, the lack of Edun or someone in that position may have caused the defenders to not know exactly where they needed to be as the player ran through.

So yes, we were very unfortunate with the sending off, but there's a way to handle it (bring Ness on?)

[roburwash]

I think we are in real trouble if Scott stays.

[earlpurple]

To be fair to Sandgaard, shortly after letting go of Nigel Adkins, he also fired Ged Roddy who had been largely responsible for the failed summer transfer window. We still had Steve Gallen as a director of football, but he didn't properly fill Roddy's role, instead hiring his son.

[gorman]

Jan 26, 2024 11:40:52 GMT roburwash said:

I think we are in real trouble if Scott stays.

Totally agree. I don’t think we will make much progress with him calling the shots and hiding behind a puppet manager.

[tidyjensen]

ANDY SCOTT OUT!

YOU'VE BROUGHT NOTHING BUT RUBBISH SIGNINGS TO THIS CLUB.

GTFO

[watameires]

Did none of the new players not look any good today?

[earlpurple]

We have not sorted out the defensive shambles yet. The reason we conceded only one goal was due to Blackpool's poor finishing rather than good defending by us.

[aaronaldo]

Jan 28, 2024 12:20:22 GMT earlpurple said:

We have not sorted out the defensive shambles yet. The reason we conceded only one goal was due to Blackpool's poor finishing rather than good defending by us.

I don’t think it can be fixed overnight. Even if we signed a leader tomorrow. A big chunk of it now is confidence. You could literally see the panic in our defence in the first half. Plus, as many have mentioned it starts from the midfield as well. We’ve switched to a new formation and our positioning is poor at times. Need a manager who know’s how to play 3-5-2 or 442 (Diamond).

[Tom1982]

For some reason I’ve not given up on Scott yet. I know he can only be assessed on the job he’s done here, which, let’s face it, ain’t been all that to put it mildly! But he’s had success at various other clubs and at least he’s from a football background. There’s got to be a degree of time given based on past performance. It’s not like we’ve got Sandgaard Jnr calling the shots or Driesen picking players off of his soppy computer games. That being said, Andy Scott needs to get a grip sharpish!

[sevenoaks]

Jan 27, 2024 16:20:02 GMT tidyjensen said:

ANDY SCOTT OUT!

YOU'VE BROUGHT NOTHING BUT RUBBISH SIGNINGS TO THIS CLUB.

GTFO

I dont entirely agree with that
Had a lot of these players been signed pre season would be a whole lot different.
Difficult when playing catch up, also I would think difficult to entice players from other clubs, who are currently playing week in week out.

[flboy84]

Jan 25, 2024 15:27:51 GMT Mundell said:

Jan 25, 2024 14:46:36 GMT reamsofverse said:

Totally disagree with the responses. The last thing Appleton needed was another sacking on his CV. He knew results were not good enough so a mutual consent decision would be a damage limitation one as far as he was concerned. It was agreed but then the next day he's still at the club and 24 hours on again he's taking the Northampton game before being sacked officially.

Not sure how that reflects badly on the board to be honest. They gave MA the opportunity to walk away and keep his managerial reputation intact.

I know what you’re saying Paul, but whatever the announcement had said, it was clear he was being sacked. Saying otherwise wasn’t going to convince anyone or help Appleton get another job. The board were trying to save money, were being entirely unrealistic and made a complete hash of it. That’s my take on it anyway. 

Can definitely see Scott trying to save face a little after overseeing 2 poor managerial choices by showing the board he at least saved the club a few £ in getting Appleton to agree to a mutual. The fact that Appleton reneged on his word to make a few extra quid was actually one of the few smart choices he made while here. A poor look all around regardless, just praying Scott gets this next hire right.

[earlpurple]

reamsofverse

Are you able to get from your sources what, if any, will the role of Andy Scott going forward now we have appointed Nathan Jones.

[reamsofverse]

Feb 4, 2024 16:45:17 GMT earlpurple said:

reamsofverse

Are you able to get from your sources what, if any, will the role of Andy Scott going forward now we have appointed Nathan Jones.

I doubt they would tell me anything about whether or not Scott is still at the club and to be honest I wouldn't put them on the spot like that by asking. Haven't heard anything to say he's gone but I just don't see a man like Nathan Jones or his staff being answerable to him. They have far more knowledge individually and collectively than Andy Scott will ever have.

Some managers are old school. My Dad was back in the day. He had scouts and I helped out now and again by watching a player or two up here if he asked me to, but the person who he trusted more than anyone on whether a potential player was good enough, was himself.

I believe Nathan Jones will be exactly the same. We'll have a bigger management team than what Dean or MA had and I think that player recruitment and scouting of players will be incorporated into it. They will do it themselves and be fully hands on with it rather than having an Andy Scott doing it for them.

[pattayadean66]

Things looking a bit brighter,just got to be a bit patient,but glad Nathan Jones has finally got the Managers Job.

[bigandy99]

How many chances does one man have?.. time to move on..TAXI

[bannerscafc39]

I think it's time for andy Scott to be removed from he's position at Charlton. The appointment off Dean Holden at first I thought it was a bit of a mad move but he grow on me he started to understand us fans and want our club is all about I wanted him to have more time but I think in the end Holden worked Scott out and that relationship broke down hence he got sacked!
Then the cheapest option in my eyes get Apples in so shit he's track record was not that great Andy Scott has been giving so much power in the club and he recruitment has been very shit to some good players in the door. Losing out to players in this window shows you what Scott is all a but me me me. He's time at Forest was not great I have mate who's a forest fan he did say good luck with him which rang alarm bells for me.

[Occam’s Razor]

Near unanimity amongst the CAFC fanbase this afternoon that with Nathan Jones appointed as our *manager* (not coach), the investors have recognised and corrected another error.

Following on from that, 99.9% agree that we don’t need a Technical Director, and we certainly no longer need the failed Aldershot manager Andy Scott.

Given how much both have publicly invested in this role, it will be good to hear from the Chairperson and Vice Chairperson (I’m not sure which is which, I think they rotate in their roles) of the Association of Clipboard Clive’s tonight. Namely Mundell and seriouslyred

On a day of genuine passion at CAFC, what are our favourite stats -driven duo saying about the new manager 🤔

What is Jones’ xG ?

Can the little Welshman work with “Doctor Will” ?

Does Nathan know one end of an abacus from the other ?

Let’s see where we are after we have heard from Kevin & Co.

[Mundell]

Feb 4, 2024 19:24:13 GMT Occam’s Razor said:

Near unanimity amongst the CAFC fanbase this afternoon that with Nathan Jones appointed as our *manager* (not coach), the investors have recognised and corrected another error.

Following on from that, 99.9% agree that we don’t need a Technical Director, and we certainly no longer need the failed Aldershot manager Andy Scott.

Given how much both have publicly invested in this role, it will be good to hear from the Chairperson and Vice Chairperson (I’m not sure which is which, I think they rotate in their roles) of the Association of Clipboard Clive’s tonight. Namely Mundell and seriouslyred

On a day of genuine passion at CAFC, what are our favourite stats -driven duo saying about the new manager 🤔

What is Jones’ xG ?

Can the little Welshman work with “Doctor Will” ?

Does Nathan know one end of an abacus from the other ?

Let’s see where we are after we have heard from Kevin & Co.

I thought you’d have figured out by now that I believe that ‘digs’ say a lot more about those doing the ‘digging’ than those being ‘dug out’!! Or is this just your sense of humour at work? 

Nevertheless, here’s an excerpt from a comment I posted on Friday evening, in reply to one of your posts. I know you read it because you liked it. 

“Third, I’d be equally surprised if we don’t continue to operate with both a Technical Director and a Director of Performance with Nathan Jones operating as a Head Coach, even if they fudge his title. It would be a complete volte face to give Jones complete control over all football matters and revert to a traditional structure and that would be an odd thing to do. This does not mean Andy Scott is the right man for the role he’s in, but that’s a completely different question. See above.”

I haven’t changed my view. I expect Jones will work with a Technical Director. That will be with either Andy Scott or his successor. 

[seriouslyred]

Feb 4, 2024 21:44:04 GMT Mundell said:

Feb 4, 2024 19:24:13 GMT Occam’s Razor said:

Near unanimity amongst the CAFC fanbase this afternoon that with Nathan Jones appointed as our *manager* (not coach), the investors have recognised and corrected another error.

Following on from that, 99.9% agree that we don’t need a Technical Director, and we certainly no longer need the failed Aldershot manager Andy Scott.

Given how much both have publicly invested in this role, it will be good to hear from the Chairperson and Vice Chairperson (I’m not sure which is which, I think they rotate in their roles) of the Association of Clipboard Clive’s tonight. Namely Mundell and seriouslyred

On a day of genuine passion at CAFC, what are our favourite stats -driven duo saying about the new manager 🤔

What is Jones’ xG ?

Can the little Welshman work with “Doctor Will” ?

Does Nathan know one end of an abacus from the other ?

Let’s see where we are after we have heard from Kevin & Co.

I thought you’d have figured out by now that I believe that ‘digs’ say a lot more about those doing the ‘digging’ than those being ‘dug out’!! Or is this just your sense of humour at work? 

Nevertheless, here’s an excerpt from a comment I posted on Friday evening, in reply to one of your posts. I know you read it because you liked it. 

“Third, I’d be equally surprised if we don’t continue to operate with both a Technical Director and a Director of Performance with Nathan Jones operating as a Head Coach, even if they fudge his title. It would be a complete volte face to give Jones complete control over all football matters and revert to a traditional structure and that would be an odd thing to do. This does not mean Andy Scott is the right man for the role he’s in, but that’s a completely different question. See above.”

I haven’t changed my view. I expect Jones will work with a Technical Director. That will be with either Andy Scott or his successor. 

Very succinct and precise Mundell

I'd add that my views haven't changed either:
We needed Jones confirmed; we need to see more of the squad plus whatever changes Jones introduced to make a call.

20 years ago we were in with a chance of qualifying for Europe before Scott Parker left for Chelsea. Unfortunately our club has gone through several relegations since then plus approximately 20 managers.

Perhaps the real challenge is the conflict between on the one hand conventional wisdom, its numerous flawed / outdated beliefs and assumptions and its very strong outcome bias, with a more measured, process based perspective on the other.

When the latter falters, supporters of the traditional approach create pressure to turn back the clock. We saw it with Duchatelet time and time again, and yet those same protesters were more than happy to celebrate promotion at Wembley five years ago.

Those who write the narrative must have suffered significant cognitive dissonance as Bauer scored that last minute winner! But within hours the strap line came out: "we won promotion despite Duchatelet"!

Today the fans and investors share the exact same interests: stable, sustainable growth with a return to the Championship at the earliest opportunity. But some prefer a return to a distant past as they feel more comfortable with that.

We should all wish for a high performing SMT who are fully accountable to the investors. Questioning the structure six months after the takeover appears a tad premature.

By the way, this is a well understood challenge in many fields. It’s not a criticism of anyone. And let's not confuse / conflate the structure with the activities and delivery of individuals.

With that in mind life would be so much simpler if we were winning every other game - but we're not.

We're losing, often by small margins, but still losing. Let's hope we've just recruited a "lucky general" to see us through this next phase.