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Post by seriouslyred on Sept 24, 2021 13:25:26 GMT
995632I agree about the Cat 1 status - Roddy spoke at length about this at the CAST meeting. Sandgaard clearly sees that as the Golden Ticket in terms of his ownership model for the club. It would be, we would be one of the few Category 1 clubs in League 1/Championship with a proven record of Academy players progressing to the first team. It would protect the club from having decent talent stolen for a pittance. The final piece is unscrupulous agents which we really can't do much about. Cat 1 is expensive. The cost of additional buildings might be £5-10M and we would also need far more coaching staff. But we would still have the challenge of recruiting and retaining the best kids. Our neighbours 11 year old just signed up after being rejected by West Ham. We need to get back to the top six asap so at least everybody sees us as a potential Championship club. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2021 13:46:44 GMT
seriouslyredWould you agree that Sandgaard seems to be very optimistic in his comments today about basically breaking even or even running a profit AND getting two promotions, all whilst playing attractive football ? I fear we are back in vintage Duchatelet territory - where the brilliant Steve Avory sees the cream of his talent sold off each year to finance the operating costs / errors of the owner. We may well have missed the boat now in terms of cashing in on Elewere’s true market value, and as you say, achieving Cat 1 status is going to cost this owner serious money whilst at the same time funding L1 losses and building a credible promotion team. I just can’t see him doing it.
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Post by Mundell on Sept 24, 2021 13:52:10 GMT
Spot on SR, we would have more chance of our talented youngsters signing contracts if we were a Championship team. Ok….so I say again what’s the bloody point in it…….😳😳 In a nutshell, the upside is the potential profit from player sales. Recent examples are Doughty, Phillips, Grant and Konsa. If the academy is productive enough it can go a long way towards offsetting operating losses while helping to fund a bigger wage budget. These benefits need to be offset against the costs obviously. Ged Roddy spoke passionately about the academy on the CAST call (the recording is now available and well worth listening to) so we can take it as a given that Sandgaard is committed to it. |
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Post by aucklandaddick on Sept 24, 2021 14:03:04 GMT
Ok….so I say again what’s the bloody point in it…….😳😳 In a nutshell, the upside is the potential profit from player sales. Recent examples are Doughty, Phillips, Grant and Konsa. If the academy is productive enough it can go a long way towards offsetting operating losses while helping to fund a bigger wage budget. These benefits need to be offset against the costs obviously. Ged Roddy spoke passionately about the academy on the CAST call (the recording is now available and well worth listening to) so we can take it as a given that Sandgaard is committed to it. Fair do’s Mundell we persuaded this young crop of talent to sign contracts at that time…but we still didn’t get anywhere near full value for their talent due to previous poor man management in not tying these players down to longer contracts at an earlier stage……However time has moved on now and the top clubs have their ears and eyes all over the best talent in the lower league youth set up….I would imagine the scouts of clubs in higher divisions are closely monitoring the Deji situation are are probably in his agents ear about the potential riches that Deji can earn by moving to a bigger club setup……You would hope there would be some sort of goodwill on the players part due to the fact that Charlton have given him his chance and are willing to give him immeadiate game time which will only enhance his development…...but when the bright lights & pound signs come calling??? |
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Post by tonaddick on Sept 24, 2021 14:12:36 GMT
In a nutshell, the upside is the potential profit from player sales. Recent examples are Doughty, Phillips, Grant and Konsa. If the academy is productive enough it can go a long way towards offsetting operating losses while helping to fund a bigger wage budget. These benefits need to be offset against the costs obviously. Ged Roddy spoke passionately about the academy on the CAST call (the recording is now available and well worth listening to) so we can take it as a given that Sandgaard is committed to it. Fair do’s Mundell we persuaded this young crop of talent to sign contracts at that time…but we still didn’t get anywhere near full value for their talent due to previous poor man management in not tying these players down to longer contracts at an earlier stage……However time has moved on now and the top clubs have their ears and eyes all over the best talent in the lower league youth set up….I would imagine the scouts of clubs in higher divisions are closely monitoring the Deji situation are are probably in his agents ear about the potential riches that Deji can earn by moving to a bigger club setup……You would hope there would be some sort of goodwill on the players part due to the fact that Charlton have given him his chance and are willing to give him immeadiate game time which will only enhance his development…...but when the bright lights & pound signs come calling??? The fair value point is a really interesting one. What is the fair value of a youth team player in a mid table league 1 side? And when you factor in that he's only been with us since he was 13 - what are the development costs? Youth football is a strange place. More kids fail than make it. If teams like us can develop talent and sell it on at a profit before the make/break time then that has to be part of a successful youth policy. An example that springs to mind is Sean McGinty. We sold him to Man Utd for £250k when he was 15. He spent last season stinking out the Scottish Championship with my big team - Morton. |
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Post by Mundell on Sept 24, 2021 14:47:32 GMT
In a nutshell, the upside is the potential profit from player sales. Recent examples are Doughty, Phillips, Grant and Konsa. If the academy is productive enough it can go a long way towards offsetting operating losses while helping to fund a bigger wage budget. These benefits need to be offset against the costs obviously. Ged Roddy spoke passionately about the academy on the CAST call (the recording is now available and well worth listening to) so we can take it as a given that Sandgaard is committed to it. Fair do’s Mundell we persuaded this young crop of talent to sign contracts at that time…but we still didn’t get anywhere near full value for their talent due to previous poor man management in not tying these players down to longer contracts at an earlier stage……However time has moved on now and the top clubs have their ears and eyes all over the best talent in the lower league youth set up….I would imagine the scouts of clubs in higher divisions are closely monitoring the Deji situation are are probably in his agents ear about the potential riches that Deji can earn by moving to a bigger club setup……You would hope there would be some sort of goodwill on the players part due to the fact that Charlton have given him his chance and are willing to give him immeadiate game time which will only enhance his development…...but when the bright lights & pound signs come calling??? I know fans want to believe that we haven’t historically received “full value” for our academy players because of “poor management”, but I don’t really believe that. It’s just been another stick to beat Duchatelet with while ignoring the fact that it’s not easy to make money player trading. There’s a virtuous circle here though. The higher up the pyramid we’re playing the more money our academy will make, simply because the players will stay with us for longer and because our bargaining position will be stronger. According to The Athletic, Chelsea raised £135m in transfer fees in the summer, £90m of which was from players they produced themselves. We’re obviously a very long way off that level, but this remarkable outcome is indicative of the potential value of producing players, IF you can offer them a career AND can afford to tie them down on long-term contracts. |
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Post by 995632 on Sept 24, 2021 14:50:35 GMT
It would be, we would be one of the few Category 1 clubs in League 1/Championship with a proven record of Academy players progressing to the first team. It would protect the club from having decent talent stolen for a pittance. The final piece is unscrupulous agents which we really can't do much about. Cat 1 is expensive. The cost of additional buildings might be £5-10M and we would also need far more coaching staff. But we would still have the challenge of recruiting and retaining the best kids. Our neighbours 11 year old just signed up after being rejected by West Ham. We need to get back to the top six asap so at least everybody sees us as a potential Championship club. Not including the facilities side of the requirements for Category 1 status (TS doesn't own the training ground), do we currently have the correct number of physical coaches and medical staff etc to gain Category 1 status? GR was in charge of the EPPP for academies. So for a club who relies on it's academy as a revenue stream (rightly or wrongly, fact of life for us), wouldn't it be generally a good idea to put the man who "created Category 1 status"in charge of getting the club up to the required standards for that? Whether he has helped that or not is another story? Wish it had been asked at the Q&A what is GR's opinion on the current state of the academy system for all clubs? Did he forsee the general hoovering up of players by Premier League Category 1 academies? Does he feel that the Deji non signing saga is in anyway due to the EPPP? Why did the EPPP not allow for sufficient recompense for clubs in the lower leagues who have unearthed talented young players? That's the reason clubs are ditching their academies! |
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Post by aucklandaddick on Sept 24, 2021 15:47:01 GMT
Fair do’s Mundell we persuaded this young crop of talent to sign contracts at that time…but we still didn’t get anywhere near full value for their talent due to previous poor man management in not tying these players down to longer contracts at an earlier stage……However time has moved on now and the top clubs have their ears and eyes all over the best talent in the lower league youth set up….I would imagine the scouts of clubs in higher divisions are closely monitoring the Deji situation are are probably in his agents ear about the potential riches that Deji can earn by moving to a bigger club setup……You would hope there would be some sort of goodwill on the players part due to the fact that Charlton have given him his chance and are willing to give him immeadiate game time which will only enhance his development…...but when the bright lights & pound signs come calling??? I know fans want to believe that we haven’t historically received “full value” for our academy players because of “poor management”, but I don’t really believe that. It’s just been another stick to beat Duchatelet with while ignoring the fact that it’s not easy to make money player trading. There’s a virtuous circle here though. The higher up the pyramid we’re playing the more money our academy will make, simply because the players will stay with us for longer and because our bargaining position will be stronger. According to The Athletic, Chelsea raised £135m in transfer fees in the summer, £90m of which was from players they produced themselves. We’re obviously a very long way off that level, but this remarkable outcome is indicative of the potential value of producing players, IF you can offer them a career AND can afford to tie them down on long-term contracts. We to let all of the players mentioned contracts run down to the bare bones and so we were always going to get picked off and not get the going rate for these players which to men is bad management…….how much money has Grant and Konsa made for their respective clubs when they sold them…. millions….how much did we get for them……..diddly squat…😳…how is that not down to our previous bad management…….? |
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Post by tonaddick on Sept 24, 2021 19:10:23 GMT
I know fans want to believe that we haven’t historically received “full value” for our academy players because of “poor management”, but I don’t really believe that. It’s just been another stick to beat Duchatelet with while ignoring the fact that it’s not easy to make money player trading. There’s a virtuous circle here though. The higher up the pyramid we’re playing the more money our academy will make, simply because the players will stay with us for longer and because our bargaining position will be stronger. According to The Athletic, Chelsea raised £135m in transfer fees in the summer, £90m of which was from players they produced themselves. We’re obviously a very long way off that level, but this remarkable outcome is indicative of the potential value of producing players, IF you can offer them a career AND can afford to tie them down on long-term contracts. We to let all of the players mentioned contracts run down to the bare bones and so we were always going to get picked off and not get the going rate for these players which to men is bad management…….how much money has Grant and Konsa made for their respective clubs when they sold them…. millions….how much did we get for them……..diddly squat…😳…how is that not down to our previous bad management…….? £4m between them, before add-ons? You can’t make people sign long term contracts. We will always be seen as a stepping stone. We may not like it, but that’s the reality. |
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Post by thevalleybest on Sept 24, 2021 20:50:38 GMT
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Post by vaangard on Sept 26, 2021 13:16:30 GMT
From Daily Mirror:- Man Utd have joined chase for Peterborough's 18yo star CB Ronnie Edwards. Haven't seen him play, but doubt he as classy as our Deji, who currently can't get on the bench while we pick a slow geriatric who can't pass and draws our defence ten yards deeper than necessary.
And Deji's not yet under contract.
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Post by bexleyboy on Oct 6, 2021 16:31:39 GMT
Diji been offered 4 year deal but unlikely to sign with West Ham and Everton both expected to offer him deal in Jan
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Post by aucklandaddick on Oct 6, 2021 17:07:15 GMT
Diji been offered 4 year deal but unlikely to sign with West Ham and Everton both expected to offer him deal in Jan Funny that……I wonder why??……..😂😂……I say again the Academy is a waste of time…… |
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Post by reamsofverse on Oct 6, 2021 17:18:21 GMT
Diji been offered 4 year deal but unlikely to sign with West Ham and Everton both expected to offer him deal in Jan Which is exactly why we should knock our academy on the head. It didn't hurt Brentford and it won't hurt us either. |
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Post by revilo on Oct 6, 2021 17:46:45 GMT
Diji been offered 4 year deal but unlikely to sign with West Ham and Everton both expected to offer him deal in Jan Which is exactly why we should knock our academy on the head. It didn't hurt Brentford and it won't hurt us either. Agreed, we are being done like kippers. |
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Post by aucklandaddick on Oct 6, 2021 17:50:32 GMT
Which is exactly why we should knock our academy on the head. It didn't hurt Brentford and it won't hurt us either. Agreed, we are being done like kippers. I certainly wouldn’t be giving him any further first term opportunities until he signs a contract…..agreed we are being taken for mugs yet again…… |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2021 19:32:35 GMT
Agreed, we are being done like kippers. I certainly wouldn’t be giving him any further first term opportunities until he signs a contract…..agreed we are being taken for mugs yet again…… It's so naff to see this happening again. Could potentially be stopped completely if we were playing in the 2nd tier rather than the bottom of the 3rd. Then no need for players to boot off after 5 games, would then get proper transfer fees for any young prospect. |
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Post by mersthamred on Oct 6, 2021 19:53:35 GMT
Don't stick a young player in the 1st team unless he's got a contract. Any kid 16-18 who can hold his own in L1 is going to be snatched away.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2021 19:56:30 GMT
It’s absolutely scandalous if we lose this lad for £200,000 in January.
Sums up just how wrong the priorities were this Summer.
Steve Avory must be livid.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2021 20:00:00 GMT
Diji been offered 4 year deal but unlikely to sign with West Ham and Everton both expected to offer him deal in Jan Which is exactly why we should knock our academy on the head. It didn't hurt Brentford and it won't hurt us either. Sandgaard doesn’t concur. He sees Cat A status as his Golden Ticket. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2021 20:08:12 GMT
We should not sack the academy. If every team did this then wtf?
Whilst Brentford have been successful and are a great example of an alternate strategy I just don’t feel morally it’s right
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Post by mersthamred on Oct 6, 2021 20:12:14 GMT
It’s absolutely scandalous if we lose this lad for £200,000 in January. Sums up just how wrong the priorities were this Summer. Steve Avory must be livid. £200k would be like theft. |
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Post by aaronaldo on Oct 6, 2021 20:22:24 GMT
The academy has been our biggest asset for as long as I’ve supported the club. No way should we get rid of it!
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Post by reamsofverse on Oct 6, 2021 21:23:59 GMT
The academy has been our biggest asset for as long as I’ve supported the club. No way should we get rid of it! It's only an asset for EPL clubs mate who step in and buy our kids off for peanuts. |
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Post by seriouslyred on Oct 6, 2021 21:40:39 GMT
The academy has been our biggest asset for as long as I’ve supported the club. No way should we get rid of it! The Academy and owning the Valley & Training ground are the reasons why we still have a club Unlike Brentford, our academy has netted us an average £5M a year in player sales since 2014. There will always be the occasional kid who is poached. Aside from Gudmundsson is there anybody else have we bought and sold for a profit? Our problem for years has been player acquisition and retention of the talent. If we had got that right back in 2019 we might still be in the Championship. |
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Post by Mundell on Oct 6, 2021 22:24:01 GMT
The academy has been our biggest asset for as long as I’ve supported the club. No way should we get rid of it! Unlike Brentford, our academy has netted us an average £5M a year in player sales since 2014. Haven’t tried to work it out, but I’d be very surprised if that’s true. I don’t think it’s true even if you include Lookman who wasn’t a product of our academy. Brentford’s model would allow them to sign players like Pope, Aribo and Lookman, but would preclude the likes of Gomez, Konsa, Phillips and Doughty. |
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Post by kings hill addick on Oct 7, 2021 6:31:16 GMT
Unlike Brentford, our academy has netted us an average £5M a year in player sales since 2014. Haven’t tried to work it out, but I’d be very surprised if that’s true. I don’t think it’s true even if you include Lookman who wasn’t a product of our academy. Brentford’s model would allow them to sign players like Pope, Aribo and Lookman, but would preclude the likes of Gomez, Konsa, Phillips and Doughty. Yes, I think I might have noticed if we’d sold £35m worth of players in the last seven years, six of which have been in the third division. Added to Lookman, I’m not sure Pope came through our Academy. Didn’t we sign him from Bury? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2021 6:44:47 GMT
This is where Roddy’s shortcomings, and the lack of a CEO, are really biting the club on the arse.
We are currently wasting not far off £20,000 a week paying players with dire fitness records, who rarely play for us.
Yet we cannot muster the resources to secure a highly promising Acadeny graduate to a long term contract.
And before the TS excusers start talking about greedy against ….Thai won’t be just about money ….it’s about forward thinking & ambition (lack of).
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Post by aucklandaddick on Oct 7, 2021 8:09:09 GMT
The academy has been our biggest asset for as long as I’ve supported the club. No way should we get rid of it! The Academy and owning the Valley & Training ground are the reasons why we still have a club Unlike Brentford, our academy has netted us an average £5M a year in player sales since 2014. There will always be the occasional kid who is poached. Aside from Gudmundsson is there anybody else have we bought and sold for a profit? Our problem for years has been player acquisition and retention of the talent. If we had got that right back in 2019 we might still be in the Championship. 5 million a year for the last 7 years - Would you be able to give us a breakdown (in transfers) of where these figures have come from? I am not having a dig here in anyway…….just interested to know mate |
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Post by bexleyboy on Oct 7, 2021 11:38:25 GMT
It’s absolutely scandalous if we lose this lad for £200,000 in January. Sums up just how wrong the priorities were this Summer. Steve Avory must be livid. As we found out with Defoe there nothing you can do if the player agent /player holds out for the money move …. We offered 4 year deal not a lot more we can do .. TS wants to get the academy back up to cat A so this stealing of young players by the big clubs can’t happen Steve Avory won’t be livid as unlike you he understands how these academy work and the unfair rules allowing these teams to poach the best young players at little expense |
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