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Post by kings hill addick on Aug 8, 2020 9:35:43 GMT
I’m guessing that the EFL are quite pleased that our predicament means that we are not in a position to sue them over the Wednesday points deduction being pushed into next season.
My Dad, who is very cynical, thinks that, in the end the EFL will make us an offer that includes us staying in the league and dropping the action about Wednesday.
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Post by 1978sussex on Aug 16, 2020 8:26:42 GMT
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Post by revilo on Aug 16, 2020 8:40:57 GMT
EFL will be absolute laughing stocks now. Admittedly we didn't deserve to stay up but their actions are so incompetent I'm surprised they haven't been disciplined.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2020 8:49:25 GMT
EFL will be absolute laughing stocks now. Admittedly we didn't deserve to stay up but their actions are so incompetent I'm surprised they haven't been disciplined. They are supposedly there to look after there members. They have failed us big time i would at least ask them to lift the embargo. That's the least they can do.FFS
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Post by oldred on Aug 16, 2020 20:21:37 GMT
How ridiculous is this, they couldn’t even carry out their own wishes, how embarrassing.
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Post by hairyhotdog on Aug 16, 2020 20:31:26 GMT
Tomorrow’s report should make embarrassing reading for all associated with the EFL...
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Post by Mundell on Aug 16, 2020 21:32:27 GMT
FFS This is Tevez all over again. The EFL is clearly incompetent and appears to have screwed up big time here. However, what on earth is an independent commission doing making judgements like this? They’ve gone way beyond an analysis of the rules and made a critical value judgement.
“The commission felt the eventual Wednesday hearing was held so late, it would have been unfair to dock them points this season.
It said: “If the penalty had been applied at a very much earlier stage, the club would have had the opportunity to improve its position by performance. Because of the delayed hearing it will have been deprived of that opportunity.”
That’s simply unacceptable. Wigan could make the same argument, i.e. that by the time they received their points deduction they didn’t have long enough to recover. Wednesday must have known a points deduction was a distinct possibility. There was nothing stopping them going flat out in their last nine games, as Wigan did. Does the QC that chaired this shitshow think that teams can turn form, and results, on and off at will?
It will be interesting to read the report when it’s published tomorrow. I said earlier on in this thread that when we see the report we’ll no doubt be even more angry. I’m certain I will be.
Fricking pathetic.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2020 21:57:16 GMT
FFS This is Tevez all over again. The EFL is clearly incompetent and appears to have screwed up big time here. However, what on earth is an independent commission doing making judgements like this? They’ve gone way beyond an analysis of the rules and made a critical value judgement. “The commission felt the eventual Wednesday hearing was held so late, it would have been unfair to dock them points this season. It said: “If the penalty had been applied at a very much earlier stage, the club would have had the opportunity to improve its position by performance. Because of the delayed hearing it will have been deprived of that opportunity.” That’s simply unacceptable. Wigan could make the same argument, i.e. that by the time they received their points deduction they didn’t have long enough to recover. Wednesday must have known a points deduction was a distinct possibility. There was nothing stopping them going flat out in their last nine games, as Wigan did. Does the QC that chaired this shitshow think that teams can turn form, and results, on and off at will? It will be interesting to read the report when it’s published tomorrow. I said earlier on in this thread that when we see the report we’ll no doubt be even more angry. I’m certain I will be. Fricking pathetic. The least the EFL can do is lift our embargo.Or give us compensation to the tune of what we would miss being in League one
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Post by hairyhotdog on Aug 17, 2020 13:21:53 GMT
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Post by hairyhotdog on Aug 17, 2020 13:23:38 GMT
Sheffield Wednesday Statement.....
The Club was disappointed with some of the decisions of the Disciplinary Commission and respectfully disagrees with both the finding that it was in breach of the P&S rules for the 2017/18 season and the sanction of a 12-point deduction to be applied in the 2020/21 season.
It is important to highlight that the Commission did not find that the sale of the stadium was itself prohibited by the P&S rules, nor that the Club acted anything other than in the utmost good faith with respect to that transaction. The Club had been assured by the EFL that the stadium sale could be included in its 2017/18 P&S returns and relied on those assurances. Having discussed the transaction with the EFL, the EFL having approved it and the Club’s auditors having signed off on it, the Club believed, and continues to believe, it was acting properly and in accordance with the rules. It is disappointing, in those circumstances, that the Commission went on to find the Club was nevertheless in breach of Charge 1.
The Club is pleased that Charge 2, which alleged that the Club had deliberately concealed certain matters from the EFL, was dismissed and that it was accepted that the Club acted openly and honestly in its dealings with the EFL. The Club further notes the Disciplinary Commission’s findings that this was a serious allegation that is not to be made lightly and an opportunity should have been afforded to the individuals involved to explain their position before the charge was brought. The Club welcomes the Disciplinary Commission’s suggestion that the EFL should have exercised its power to investigate under Regulations 82.2/3/4 as being a fairer approach rather than to bring the allegations without further investigation.
Despite the EFL’s “sanctioning guidelines” (which it is not accepted apply in this case) providing for any points deduction sanction to take effect in the year following the breach (which in the Club’s case would have been the 2018/19 season when it finished 24 points clear of the relegation zone) and other mitigating factors, the Commission imposed the maximum 12-point deduction for next season. The EFL sought to have the sanction imposed in the 2019/20 season that has just concluded, which would have seen the Club relegated, in stark contrast to the position it adopted in the Derby County disciplinary proceedings where it was content for any sanction to be imposed next season because Derby would not be relegated. The Club is pleased the Commission rejected such an inconsistent approach to sanctioning by the EFL.
Given the findings in respect of Charge 1 and the sanction imposed, the Club shall be appealing the Decision to an EFL League Arbitration Panel, both against the finding with respect to Charge 1 and the sanction. The Club believes its grounds of appeal to be strong. The Club will continue to take all appropriate steps to protect its interests, for the benefit of the Club and its supporters, and looks forward to the appeal being heard by the League Arbitration Panel at the earliest opportunity. While the Club does not set the timetable for the hearing of the appeal it considers it likely that it will take place in autumn 2020.
The Club will make no further comment until the outcome of the appeal is known.
Club News Advertisement block
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Post by wellingaddick on Aug 17, 2020 13:31:52 GMT
Sheffield Wednesday Statement..... The Club was disappointed with some of the decisions of the Disciplinary Commission and respectfully disagrees with both the finding that it was in breach of the P&S rules for the 2017/18 season and the sanction of a 12-point deduction to be applied in the 2020/21 season. It is important to highlight that the Commission did not find that the sale of the stadium was itself prohibited by the P&S rules, nor that the Club acted anything other than in the utmost good faith with respect to that transaction. The Club had been assured by the EFL that the stadium sale could be included in its 2017/18 P&S returns and relied on those assurances. Having discussed the transaction with the EFL, the EFL having approved it and the Club’s auditors having signed off on it, the Club believed, and continues to believe, it was acting properly and in accordance with the rules. It is disappointing, in those circumstances, that the Commission went on to find the Club was nevertheless in breach of Charge 1. The Club is pleased that Charge 2, which alleged that the Club had deliberately concealed certain matters from the EFL, was dismissed and that it was accepted that the Club acted openly and honestly in its dealings with the EFL. The Club further notes the Disciplinary Commission’s findings that this was a serious allegation that is not to be made lightly and an opportunity should have been afforded to the individuals involved to explain their position before the charge was brought. The Club welcomes the Disciplinary Commission’s suggestion that the EFL should have exercised its power to investigate under Regulations 82.2/3/4 as being a fairer approach rather than to bring the allegations without further investigation. Despite the EFL’s “sanctioning guidelines” (which it is not accepted apply in this case) providing for any points deduction sanction to take effect in the year following the breach (which in the Club’s case would have been the 2018/19 season when it finished 24 points clear of the relegation zone) and other mitigating factors, the Commission imposed the maximum 12-point deduction for next season. The EFL sought to have the sanction imposed in the 2019/20 season that has just concluded, which would have seen the Club relegated, in stark contrast to the position it adopted in the Derby County disciplinary proceedings where it was content for any sanction to be imposed next season because Derby would not be relegated. The Club is pleased the Commission rejected such an inconsistent approach to sanctioning by the EFL. Given the findings in respect of Charge 1 and the sanction imposed, the Club shall be appealing the Decision to an EFL League Arbitration Panel, both against the finding with respect to Charge 1 and the sanction. The Club believes its grounds of appeal to be strong. The Club will continue to take all appropriate steps to protect its interests, for the benefit of the Club and its supporters, and looks forward to the appeal being heard by the League Arbitration Panel at the earliest opportunity. While the Club does not set the timetable for the hearing of the appeal it considers it likely that it will take place in autumn 2020. The Club will make no further comment until the outcome of the appeal is known. Club News Advertisement block How convenient that they mention Derby, but not Wigan.
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Post by oldred on Aug 17, 2020 15:38:09 GMT
I hope that their “punishment” will be increased.
I can’t believe that they have the nerve to appeal, after what they have got away with.
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Post by Mundell on Aug 17, 2020 16:43:19 GMT
Here's a link to the Independent Commission's report. Its fairly pathetic. A quick summary would be that a twelve points penalty was a slam dunk, but the buffoons at the EFL tied themselves in knots and the Independent Commission decided, in its infinite wisdom, that it wasn't fair to deduct twelve points in the season just ended without giving Wednesday the chance to win those points back on the pitch. The EFL wanted Wednesday to be relegated, but as I said earlier on in this thread the problem with delegating disciplinary action is that you lose control. On what planet does it make sense for Sir David Foskett QC, who for all we know might never have been to a football match in his life, to prevent the EFL dishing out its intended punishment based on what is, in essence, a football argument? Wednesday have an unbelievable nerve appealing. You'd think they have no chance whatsoever, but frankly who knows? They might get lucky again if another unqualified 'flanker' makes another bizarre decision.
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Post by kings hill addick on Aug 17, 2020 18:02:57 GMT
Here's a link to the Independent Commission's report. Its fairly pathetic. A quick summary would be that a twelve points penalty was a slam dunk, but the buffoons at the EFL tied themselves in knots and the Independent Commission decided, in its infinite wisdom, that it wasn't fair to deduct twelve points in the season just ended without giving Wednesday the chance to win those points back on the pitch. The EFL wanted Wednesday to be relegated, but as I said earlier on in this thread the problem with delegating disciplinary action is that you lose control. On what planet does it make sense for Sir David Foskett QC, who for all we know might never have been to a football match in his life, to prevent the EFL dishing out its intended punishment based on what is, in essence, a football argument? Wednesday have an unbelievable nerve appealing. You'd think they have no chance whatsoever, but frankly who knows? They might get lucky again if another unqualified 'flanker' makes another bizarre decision. Or maybe they will postpone the points deduction until 2021/22 or 2022/23, or 2023/24 or........
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Post by AndyB on Aug 17, 2020 18:15:13 GMT
Here's a link to the Independent Commission's report. Its fairly pathetic. A quick summary would be that a twelve points penalty was a slam dunk, but the buffoons at the EFL tied themselves in knots and the Independent Commission decided, in its infinite wisdom, that it wasn't fair to deduct twelve points in the season just ended without giving Wednesday the chance to win those points back on the pitch. The EFL wanted Wednesday to be relegated, but as I said earlier on in this thread the problem with delegating disciplinary action is that you lose control. On what planet does it make sense for Sir David Foskett QC, who for all we know might never have been to a football match in his life, to prevent the EFL dishing out its intended punishment based on what is, in essence, a football argument? Wednesday have an unbelievable nerve appealing. You'd think they have no chance whatsoever, but frankly who knows? They might get lucky again if another unqualified 'flanker' makes another bizarre decision. Or maybe they will postpone the points deduction until 2021/22 or 2022/23, or 2023/24 or........ yeah as long as they don’t get relegated
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Post by oldred on Aug 17, 2020 19:20:44 GMT
Exactly, give them a punishment but give them the chance to avoid it being too damaging. 🤦🏻
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Post by 1978sussex on Aug 18, 2020 15:48:55 GMT
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Post by reamsofverse on Aug 18, 2020 15:58:18 GMT
I honestly feel that we are doing this in a bid to get the current penalties against us either suspended or canceled all together.
Everyone knows there is not enough time to appeal this and succeed given that the season starts four weeks on Saturday so it's doomed to failure so given that is not our fault, maybe they can compensate us in other ways?
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Post by kings hill addick on Aug 18, 2020 16:07:58 GMT
I honestly feel that we are doing this in a bid to get the current penalties against us either suspended or canceled all together. Everyone knows there is not enough time to appeal this and succeed given that the season starts four weeks on Saturday so it's doomed to failure so given that is not our fault, maybe they can compensate us in other ways? I believe we are asking for this because we might be able to wrangle Championship TV money for next season. It’s all about money. It’s all about money!
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Post by reamsofverse on Aug 18, 2020 16:22:47 GMT
True.
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Post by wellingaddick on Aug 18, 2020 16:29:47 GMT
I honestly feel that we are doing this in a bid to get the current penalties against us either suspended or canceled all together. Everyone knows there is not enough time to appeal this and succeed given that the season starts four weeks on Saturday so it's doomed to failure so given that is not our fault, maybe they can compensate us in other ways? We have little to Bob hope of succeeding with this, especially as the Wendies are appealing against the points deduction. But we should be claiming for the TV money, or exemption from the salary cap as compensation.
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Post by ExeterAddick on Aug 18, 2020 16:30:14 GMT
I honestly feel that we are doing this in a bid to get the current penalties against us either suspended or canceled all together. Everyone knows there is not enough time to appeal this and succeed given that the season starts four weeks on Saturday so it's doomed to failure so given that is not our fault, maybe they can compensate us in other ways? Completely agree. I think the EFL know we’ve been screwed over, so may be more inclined to ‘look after’ us in other areas.
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Post by hairyhotdog on Aug 18, 2020 17:00:09 GMT
I honestly feel that we are doing this in a bid to get the current penalties against us either suspended or canceled all together. Everyone knows there is not enough time to appeal this and succeed given that the season starts four weeks on Saturday so it's doomed to failure so given that is not our fault, maybe they can compensate us in other ways? So basically both sides of the decision are appealing the decision..... 🤪
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Post by Mundell on Aug 18, 2020 17:27:02 GMT
This is a more complete version of the Independent Disciplinary Panel’s ruling on the Sheffield Wednesday case than the one I linked yesterday. Report here. The EFL must be furious. Wednesday are as guilty as sin. It really isn’t obvious why they wouldn’t appeal.
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Post by Mundell on Aug 18, 2020 22:10:19 GMT
I’ve now read the document I linked above. Jesus wept.
Even if you already believe that the EFL are often asleep at the wheel, that Sheffield Wednesday cheated shamelessly and that, somehow, the Independent Disciplinary Commission went very easy on them, it’s nevertheless almost certainly worse than you think. Here are a few snippets from the report.
Our old mate, the hapless, blisteringly incompetent Shaun Harvey didn’t exactly cover himself in glory. After a meeting with Dejphon Chansiri and Katrien Meire, in which they discussed the fact that Wednesday breached the EFL’s profitability and sustainability rules by a cool £18m, he wrote the following in an email to his EFL colleagues,
“Our objective is to try and get the Club to a position that it is not in breach but at all times within the Rules.“
Run that by me again Shaun!! You’re saying Wednesday have broken the rules by a huge margin, but let’s try and find a way to make it look as if they haven’t. Wow. Just fricking wow.
Following the same meeting Meire wrote the following in her weekly update to Chansiri,
“Chairman, I only will say that I don't feel comfortable signing a document of a transaction that is backdated.
I understand it's to help the club but I think it's quite risky with so many people that will have known that this is not what has happened.”
Indeed. And as a qualified solicitor you’d know wouldn’t you Katrien? Yet just a few days later that’s exactly what she did. Some time in mid August she signed a document and dated it the 15th July. Wow.
Mind you, she might think she was encouraged by the EFL’s CEO who was yet again leading by example. He wrote the following in an email to Meire in early August,
“You need to move very quickly for this transaction to look credible - we are in your hands.”
To be clear, Harvey was fully aware that to avoid that £18m breach, Wednesday needed to provide clear evidence of a binding commitment to sell the Stadium before the end of July so that the auditors could include the profits in the relevant accounts. He also knew that at the end of July no such document was in place.
The implication of his email was obvious. I’m just gobsmacked. What’s really galling is that there’s absolutely no accountability here. The fucker got a £510,000 payoff. He should never work in football again.
I’ll leave, what for me at least, is the best until last. In his conclusion, Sir David Foskett, QC, wrote the following,
“In this case, it led to the back-dating of a document which, in the particular circumstances, was not dishonest, but which could all to (sic) easily lead to suggestions that it was.“
Really!! Interesting definition of honest there David!! I must have signed thousands of documents and agreements et al during my career and I’ve never backdated one. Not one. Perhaps I’m naive, so I googled ‘can you backdate legal documents?’ The top rated response was as follows,
“The question is: can the documents be backdated? The short answer is ‘no’. Giving a document a date which is earlier than the date when it was actually signed, would almost certainly constitute fraud”.
Not according to our Wednesday friendly QC it seems. What was that about the law being an ass?
I give up. There really is no hope. It’s worse than I thought. And I thought it was pretty bad. Unbelievable.
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Post by oldred on Aug 18, 2020 22:46:35 GMT
Unbelievable, the EFL were complicit in the deception. That must have made punishing them rather more difficult.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2020 4:26:52 GMT
So it theory could we possibly sue for loss of revenue etc.
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Post by aaronaldo on Aug 19, 2020 8:05:27 GMT
Unbelievable. Why are SW appealing?
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Post by jonkool on Aug 19, 2020 8:52:19 GMT
Unbelievable. Why are SW appealing? Coz it’s been a successful strategy to date and they want to be fully exonerated and their ‘good’ reputation restored. From Mundell’s posts we can see that the EFL have been complicit over a number of years.
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Post by redrobin on Aug 19, 2020 14:25:02 GMT
[quote timestamp="1597766298" author=" reamsofverse" o honestly feel that we are doing this in a bid to get the current penalties against us either suspended or canceled all together. Everyone knows there is not enough time to appeal this and succeed given that the season starts four weeks on Saturday so it's doomed to failure so given that is not our fault, maybe they can compensate us in other ways? We have little to Bob hope of succeeding with this, especially as the Wendies are appealing against the points deduction. But we should be claiming for the TV money, or exemption from the salary cap as compensation.[/quote] Hopefully , TS takes over and appoints "Freshfields" to take on EFL on this matter. Could be interesting.........
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