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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 19:54:14 GMT
As the thread on 'questions for the Trust' has for some reason been closed less than 24 hours after it was opened, can I start a new thread on the important issue raised by seriously red in that thread's penultimate post, which was made only minutes before it was terminated?
seriouslyred wrote:
"When I was on the Trust Board we came under fire from time to time but we rode it out by talking to ordinary fans and releasing more articles on the Trust website.
Long story short when it all kicked off on CL, people emailed us to say it looked terrible. Was it Alistair Cambell who stated that when you become the story it's time to step down / step back?
As I have posted elsewhere, I've completely lost sight of what the Trust message is right now and I am someone sympathetic to the cause."
My response , in summary, was as follows:
"That's my view, too. Despite rik's attempts to paint me as an implacable opponent of the Trust (which he did by selective quotation ''out of context'', ha ha!), I am philosophically in total support of the idea of a Supporters Trust.
My beef is that those running it have botched it so badly that I am sure most of us, like you, SR, have no idea what the Trust's message is right now.
Are they opposed in principle to CAFC being part of a Euro-network of clubs? Rik bangs on about the need for Charlton to become "autonomous" ; I'd hate to take his words 'out of context', but that would appear to suggest that he and the Trust are opposed to being part of a network - which in turn means they must be opposed to Duchatalet's ownership?
Yet at the same time they are demanding "dialogue" with the guy.
If they ever get that "dialogue" (which they won't in a year of Sundays under the Trust's current inept leadership), what would the message be? Is it 'can we thank you and the network for Luzon, Ben Haim, Bulot, Buyens and Watt, and how can we help you continue the good work?' or 'we want you to piss off and sell to someone who will run CAFC as an "autonomous" club?'
Like seriously red, I no longer have any idea of what the Trust stands for, other than 'listen to us because we are important' . The reality is the opposite: by the naivete of the way the 'leadership' has behaved, they have rendered the Trust irrelevant and impotent.
There are two possible courses of action.
1) Sensible and rational fans, who so far broadly approve of the direction the club is taking under its current leadership, boycott the Trust and watch it whither and die.
2) Or those of us who are broadly supportive of the current ownership and management and dislike the destructive approach of those who persistently criticise and denigrate them, should put up a slate of candidates and seek to recapture the Trust for a more constructive and fruitful approach.
When are the next set of elections to the Trust board, SR?
These are significant questions that deserve to be addressed and there are probably no instant answers.
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Post by reamsofverse on Mar 24, 2015 20:14:58 GMT
IA if the club won't talk to them then the question is really of no significance is it?
The last thread was closed down because it run it's course. Rik was asked questions which he answered but then his answers were ridiculed so what's the point? What happens then is it goes off course and turns into a kids school playground.
If people want to post in this thread then fair enough but I won't have threads created so that personal attacks can be made on people.
All questions have been asked and all questions have been answered so how many threads do we need?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 20:31:38 GMT
That's not really the point. And all questions have most decidedly NOT been aswered.
The most significant unresolved question , raised by SR, concerns those who do not support- and struggle even to comprehend - the Trust's current position.
Should the Trust be ignored and allowed to wither on the vine, as it almost certainly will without an intelligent intervention?
Or should a new bunch of candidates with a more constructive outlook, such as yourself and SR, stand and seek to replace the existing board and realign the Trust in a more positive direction?
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Post by squareball on Mar 24, 2015 20:53:44 GMT
Right now I am against boycotting anything, the club , the trust , season tickets or whatever.
As most of us agree in theory with a trust we should let the hare sit for a while and in time the club may mellow towards them if they reach some common ground.
The new trust board is still only cutting its teeth so who knows what the future will bring. I am still not a member and have no intention of being one but in fairness Rik has done his best imo to try to help us understand.
I am a fan of the current set up in ownership so I have no need to feel part of a trust but should I change my mind, if things went tits up , then I would be glad the trust were around .
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Post by browntalk on Mar 24, 2015 21:00:43 GMT
First thing that needs to be addressed is can the egos of the 'thought masters' to allow such a thing.
Can you see Rick 'Blakey' Everett allowing anyone any time in the sun? Or Bernie? or God forbid king of the fans, Ben Hayes. It won't happen, the reason the trust has not worked is because of the individuals involved. They have egos the size of planets and reason the size of peas. There are charmless, dour, antagonistic, and painfully insecure. Until these people are removed , a trust will not work. Imagine a proper candidate, with charm, charisma and drive, he would be drummed out immediately.
Q
The Charlton life website needs to well,, get a life. At the moment it is ruled by 4 people who dictate the terms of the discussion, free thinking and edgy conversations are jumped upon. How the hell can leaders rise when the cheese monkeys won't allow it. There are talented people on that site (and on this) that can amuse and lead and would make better candidates. As a forum allow free thinking and volatility and see who is left standing. That is who you want to lead you.
Have a policy! What the fuck was the trust policies? I have never heard such nonsense like 'we want to be autominous' well you are already you cretins!, no bugger wants anything to do with you!! '
They were an classic example of wannabe intellectuals playing wannabe politicians, not content with sitting on the edge of London Bridge station counting trains they took to football politics.
Has the trust got a future? Yes Of course it has!!! As long as there is a stage some prat will want to jump on it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 21:17:55 GMT
Imagine a proper candidate, with charm, charisma and drive, he would be drummed out immediately. You mean like reams? |
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Post by reamsofverse on Mar 24, 2015 21:18:56 GMT
That's not really the point. And all questions have most decidedly NOT been aswered. The most significant unresolved question , raised by SR, concerns those who do not support- and struggle even to comprehend - the Trust's current position. Should the Trust be ignored and allowed to wither on the vine, as it almost certainly will without an intelligent intervention? Or should a new bunch of candidates with a more constructive outlook, such as yourself and SR, stand and seek to replace the existing board and realign the Trust in a more positive direction? A) But what makes you think that it's Rik's responsibility to answer those questions? B) When he does he gets accused of avoiding the key issues so he can't win. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 21:27:47 GMT
Noting to do with rik. He's one person out a nine strong board, none of whom have a bloody clue what they are doing or what it is they want to achieve.
It's a mistake to personalise it around one individual who has volunteered to be the mouthpiece for what is a collecive confusion.
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Post by reamsofverse on Mar 24, 2015 21:27:49 GMT
First thing that needs to be addressed is can the egos of the 'thought masters' to allow such a thing. Can you see Rick 'Blakey' Everett allowing anyone any time in the sun? Or Bernie? or God forbid king of the fans, Ben Hayes. It won't happen, the reason the trust has not worked is because of the individuals involved. They have egos the size of planets and reason the size of peas. There are charmless, dour, antagonistic, and painfully insecure. Until these people are removed , a trust will not work. Imagine a proper candidate, with charm, charisma and drive, he would be drummed out immediately. Q The Charlton life website needs to well,, get a life. At the moment it is ruled by 4 people who dictate the terms of the discussion, free thinking and edgy conversations are jumped upon. How the hell can leaders rise when the cheese monkeys won't allow it. There are talented people on that site (and on this) that can amuse and lead and would make better candidates. As a forum allow free thinking and volatility and see who is left standing. That is who you want to lead you. Have a policy! What the fuck was the trust policies? I have never heard such nonsense like 'we want to be autominous' well you are already you cretins!, no bugger wants anything to do with you!! ' They were an classic example of wannabe intellectuals playing wannabe politicians, not content with sitting on the edge of London Bridge station counting trains they took to football politics. Has the trust got a future? Yes Of course it has!!! As long as there is a stage some prat will want to jump on it. CL is the TRUSTS forum basically. As for Everitt and Hayes, do you honestly think that people take either of these two blokes seriously? As far as one of them is concerned I can tell you for a fact that he works 24/7 to undermine the concept of a Trust with whispers around the club, the irony is though, club people think he's a joke! |
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Post by reamsofverse on Mar 24, 2015 21:30:36 GMT
Noting to do with rik. He's one person out a nine strong board, none of whom have a clue what they are doing. It's a mistake to personalise it around one individual who has volunteered to be the mouthpiece for what is a collecive confusion. So why are we giving them air time on here then? If they don't know what they're doing why have we got multiple threads on the subject? I think we should move on and concentrate on the football, this TRUST obsession isn't doing anybody any favours least of all the forums. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 21:36:20 GMT
Noting to do with rik. He's one person out a nine strong board, none of whom have a clue what they are doing. It's a mistake to personalise it around one individual who has volunteered to be the mouthpiece for what is a collecive confusion. So why are we giving them air time on here then? If they don't know what they're doing why have we got multiple threads on the subject? I think we should move on and concentrate on the football, this TRUST obsession isn't doing anybody any favours least of all the forums. Because we are discussing whether the Trust COULD play a constructive role rather than its current impotent one if sensible supporters without an axe to grind and who appreciate the improvements under the current ownership and management decided to get involved in order to realign the Trust in a more co-operative direction? Seems a very valid discussion point to me. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 21:53:05 GMT
They have no future all the time your fanning the flames they will continue burning in the back ground.Let the embers die out. Charlton Rodney Trotta post on CL at 1.06 today in the Katrien Miere on sky thread that said it all for me .Lets concentrate on the football side.
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Post by reamsofverse on Mar 24, 2015 22:02:26 GMT
But IA whether it's a constructive role or an impotent one, if there is no role for them to play then it doesn't matter does it?
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Post by browntalk on Mar 24, 2015 22:22:23 GMT
I think your missing the point, reams
One day the club will need a go to guy. At the moment this club's supporters have no emergency escape. Let's suppose the board decided to sell Tony Watt to a travelling circus. The fans are outraged, who do they turn to?
The Charlton life website ? Where they will spend 400,000 posts on deciding if the circus is in fact, made up of gypsies who need special dispensation as a minority and they will then decide that it would be racist to interfere and Tony will be well looked after and could after all start a family with the bearded lady.
The trust? That would take years. The entire voting process would need to be checked, ratified, voted on by the special panel, re voted. Then put back to the even more special panel for second reading, the even more special panel would then vote, to appoint a member of the Clarke family to decide what to do next. The religious order of the trust will then pray for guidance. In the meantime tony watt gets sat on by an elephant.
No we need a specials forces squad, an SAS unit in the wings. Ready at a drop of a jockstrap to take control and carry out missions. I can't do Thursday's if your thinking of setting one up. Or Sunday afternoon.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 1:10:34 GMT
But IA whether it's a constructive role or an impotent one, if there is no role for them to play then it doesn't matter does it? Fair enough, Reams. It might not matter to you but some people, including myself, tend to want non-entities to shut the fuck up because the noise they create to try and make themselves look important is akin to Chinese water torture. More importantly, it is not in the best interests of our club's progress but just to promote self serving agendas. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 1:20:19 GMT
I think your missing the point, reams One day the club will need a go to guy. At the moment this club's supporters have no emergency escape. Let's suppose the board decided to sell Tony Watt to a travelling circus. The fans are outraged, who do they turn to? The Charlton life website ? Where they will spend 400,000 posts on deciding if the circus is in fact, made up of gypsies who need special dispensation as a minority and they will then decide that it would be racist to interfere and Tony will be well looked after and could after all start a family with the bearded lady. The trust? That would take years. The entire voting process would need to be checked, ratified, voted on by the special panel, re voted. Then put back to the even more special panel for second reading, the even more special panel would then vote, to appoint a member of the Clarke family to decide what to do next. The religious order of the trust will then pray for guidance. In the meantime tony watt gets sat on by an elephant. No we need a specials forces squad, an SAS unit in the wings. Ready at a drop of a jockstrap to take control and carry out missions. I can't do Thursday's if your thinking of setting one up. Or Sunday afternoon. May I opine that the only person to 'Turn to" is the one with the money and unless he/or she chooses to listen, you can have all the 'Trusts' up the ying yang but they would be a complete waste of time (and 5 quid) if they have not sensibly set their course from the outset to offer something an owner can respect. You disrespect his appointed CEO, you disrespect him. Now let me hear the 'Trust' wallahs tell me that didn't happen. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 10:15:29 GMT
I feel the KM interview on Sky was the last nail in the Trust coffin.
The Trust is reactionary, ego driven and lives in the past.
KM is calm and well ordered, a genuine enthusiastic fan who wants the best for the club and it's supporters, plus she is trying to achieve that with a modern and fresh approach and outlook.
The King is dead...long live the King.
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Post by overthetop on Mar 25, 2015 12:25:56 GMT
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Post by Guns Blazing on Mar 25, 2015 12:29:22 GMT
Duchatelet had long wanted an English club. Fulham then owned by Al Fayed could have been a target but when I ask 'why didn’t you buy Fulham' she laughs and then says:
“At the time I think the price was a bit... they were still in the Premier League. Also the idea is to have clubs at different levels.”
^ This is a bit worrying, from that article?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 12:57:32 GMT
Very good interview. She is really becoming quite a celebrity in the English game, isn't she? Distresing to read about all the abuse she has been getting. Those doing it should be thoroughly ashamed of themsleves. Whether you like the idea of a network or not, she deserves respect , both as a human being, and for the excellent job she is doing in turning the club around. |
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Post by reamsofverse on Mar 25, 2015 13:08:09 GMT
I am glad that she has come out and told everybody that what happened on that Watford train was nothing compared to what was launched at her at Euston, I confirmed this to you earlier in the week. She told me this at Cardiff and admitted that the players they bought in originally were not good enough which I put up on here that same night when I got home.
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Post by seriouslyred on Mar 25, 2015 14:16:02 GMT
Blimey did I write those quotes?!
"look at the position we were in 12 months ago and look at the players we have brought in...it doesn't matter where they come from... Look at the quality of the players we have from Liege - Watt, Ben Haim, Buyens and Bulot."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 16:09:13 GMT
Off topic I know but...This forum is the best it's ever been. So we don't have 10,000 members, but quality over quantity every time. Well done Reams and Inky for refurnishing our second home  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 16:31:26 GMT
ITTV is like a rowing boat. If the rowers all pull together you go in a straight line, if not, you just go around in circles.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 17:10:32 GMT
But IA whether it's a constructive role or an impotent one, if there is no role for them to play then it doesn't matter does it? Fair enough, Reams. It might not matter to you but some people, including myself, tend to want non-entities to shut the fuck up because the noise they create to try and make themselves look important is akin to Chinese water torture. More importantly, it is not in the best interests of our club's progress but just to promote self serving agendas. Possibly the real "issue" is they claim to represent Charlton Supporters, note they only have what is it 1-1500 PAID up supporters, which means the VAST majority of REAL supporters dont give a shit about the "Trust". Problem is they still tout themselves as representing the "Fans" , not me they dont ... from CL RodneyCharltonTrotter, who makes some very good points - hes referring to the makeup of the Trust board , 9 members 5 of which were part of G21 , who ever that sad little bunch are !! "The G21 did. 5 members of which make up 9 members of the trust board, including the chair who gave a less than flattering interview to the BBC
2 of the trust board don't reside in England and therefore I imagine don't attend many games, the "elected" chair also has a daughter on the board and is touted as representative of the youth.
No disrespect meant to the individuals but when you view it like that it does seem a very narrow wedge of Charlton support claiming to represent the wider fanbase when in fact it does not at all. The majority of the board to me appear to be members of the G21, their family members and people living outside England who don't go to many games" |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 17:13:53 GMT
"Katrien Meire: I've had frightening abuse from Charlton fans… but I love leading role" These idiots must be SO proud of themselves....... |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 17:35:26 GMT
Fair enough, Reams. It might not matter to you but some people, including myself, tend to want non-entities to shut the fuck up because the noise they create to try and make themselves look important is akin to Chinese water torture. More importantly, it is not in the best interests of our club's progress but just to promote self serving agendas. Possibly the real "issue" is they claim to represent Charlton Supporters, note they only have what is it 1-1500 PAID up supporters, which means the VAST majority of REAL supporters dont give a shit about the "Trust". Problem is they still tout themselves as representing the "Fans" , not me they dont ... from CL RodneyCharltonTrotter, who makes some very good points - hes referring to the makeup of the Trust board , 9 members 5 of which were part of G21 , who ever that sad little bunch are !! "The G21 did. 5 members of which make up 9 members of the trust board, including the chair who gave a less than flattering interview to the BBC
2 of the trust board don't reside in England and therefore I imagine don't attend many games, the "elected" chair also has a daughter on the board and is touted as representative of the youth.
No disrespect meant to the individuals but when you view it like that it does seem a very narrow wedge of Charlton support claiming to represent the wider fanbase when in fact it does not at all. The majority of the board to me appear to be members of the G21, their family members and people living outside England who don't go to many games"I wasn't aware that the G21 faction has a controlling majority on the Trust board, but it explains a lot. Our voluble friend rikofold kept very quiet about that particular statistic, didn't he??? If you recall, I said at the the time the Trust called the Woolwich meeting that it was actually the same public meeting the G21 had wanted 12 months earlier. It also explains the stupid decision to give Powell a platform to attack the club's owner and distribute that attack free to all fans on the very day Powell came back to the Valley to try to take three points from us. Actually, it wasn't a stupid decision at all , because it perfectly fitted the G21's pro-Powell, anti-Duchatalet agenda. So now the truth is out. The Trust is just the G21 wolf, trying to dress itself in sheep's clothing. I missed that fact, but Katrien is cleverer than me and it seems she saw right through it straight away. |
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Post by wellingaddick on Mar 25, 2015 21:58:32 GMT
Small wonder that Katrien won't engage with the Trust if this is the case.
I'm sure that somewhere, she will have a list of the names of those involved in the Royal Oak meeting. Seeing some of them now appearing on the board of CAST surely cannot improve relations between the Club and the Trust.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 22:05:49 GMT
You can imaging the conversation 12 months ago Trust to G21 don't rock the boat yet lets get established and then you lot can take over
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Post by webbo on Mar 25, 2015 23:25:49 GMT
I am assuming the Watford train incident, and any nasty stuff at Euston was carried out by individuals representing themselves. Nobody has actually said so I reckon, but whatever the criticism of the Trust, they can't be held responsible for the Watford stuff. Now Katrien was frightened by the stuff that happened after Watford, so she says, and she has the sense to recognise that it does not mean all Charlton fans want to behave like that. I hope she doesn't think because of individual abuse of that kind it was the fault of the Trust. Any kind of contact Katrien has with the Trust is unlikely to be the same as the Watford train or Euston but probably much more polite.
I am in favour of the Trust, but it can't force the owners to engage with it can it? Possibly the role of the trust is not to wither, but to be dormant, but be there if the need arises for some kind of concerted fan stuff in the future. I think it is a mistake for there to be a rift but there you go, the owners feels the Trust is a threat, and he has all the money and power and can take the risk of annoying some sections of Charlton fans.
It is amusing seeing loads of people writing here going on about motives of people involved, and their individual characters, yet on the other thread I reckon rikofold showed patience and good manners even when he was getting dogs abuse. I am more in favour of getting behind somebody like rikofold than Euston Station abusers, I can see the difference, but maybe the owners are paranoid and can't see the difference themselves.
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