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Post by seriouslyred on Mar 12, 2015 0:53:53 GMT
Can't disagree. Tried to be subtle in suggesting Razil, myself and the others built the trust in the Jinimez Slater era and we never had a pop at the board... They promoted us and we went from 500 fan connections to 5,000!
Leave outright criticism of the club to VOTV and CL.
We built a dialogue with Slater, Prothero and Murray and the management team. Of course there were difficulties but we never slated them. Ever!
That's why we secured promotions for surveys and the stall on club property under the badge on the North Stand... While Rick Everett sells his stuff across the road.
I have to be careful how I express this but the Trust is either married to the badge or its just another whinging group demanding x,y and z.
We are rising up the league with the best team for seven or eight years and people are going blah blah blah... Beyond parody!
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razil
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Post by razil on Mar 12, 2015 5:16:39 GMT
Except your comment spotty dog as someone who I am assuming has never been a supporter of the Trust is way off and for a number of reasons, you like some other detractors simply jump on incidents that underline your own prejudices ignoring anything that doesn't fit. Sorry but this is the say it as I see it forum.. If I'm wrong I'm sure you will let me know
The Trust has never denied changr or criticised the Network for its own sake, it has from day one pointed out objectively issues with it, and refefenced the Pozzo example at Watford
It constantly from day one has recognised commercial realities
If you had read trust material throughout its existence you would see this.
It is also written into the Trust constitution that it be a critical friend that seeks constructive dialogue, not a cheerleader, a principled approach that means it remains independent. It has been shown by research and surveys that this is what nembers want it to be, rather than being a pr arm of the club.
What the trust needs to do earn respect is act in a principalled way, but also respectful and trust worthy, and that is what I tried to do while Chairman.
The g21 which i was present at was a very loose grouping, setting it up as many do as some sort of cohesive group with a single view is so way off the mark you would not believe. A bit like saying this forum or that 'other place' have a single viewpoint - its simpified cobblers
The TB is also a mix, a broad church with a wide range of views and strong personalities, and not something even if it were true about Steve (which I don't believe because I nominated him for his professionalism and objectivity) that a chairman could steer in the way you suggest believe me I know.
Finally the club showed very little enthusiasm for strategic dialogue before the Powell article, or the public neeting. and again I know this first hand so no I don't believe either have negatively impacted on that.
There is zero evidence to suggest that recent actions have had the negative impact you suggest and both were the airing of views expressed by others. I don't expect the club liked either but both were precipitated by their own actions.
I completely disagree with the sentiment, in fact its the reverse. Any trust that shys away from the truth and airing the wide range of views at a public meeting is irrelevant. The trust has always looked to establish and the real consensus of feeling of fans but in a scientific way which is why we survey so much.
where the Trust has been critical was in the statement in early January, something that received widespread approval in many quarters supporters and detractors alike, including on here.
R
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 7:25:28 GMT
Hate to intrude on private grief seriouslyred @rikofold razil, but in terms of strategy and tactics CAST make Captain Mainwairing look like Field Marshall Montgomery. You led 400 fans up to the top of the hill at the public meeting - but what precisely did you follow it up with? #bindweed
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razil
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Post by razil on Mar 12, 2015 7:39:03 GMT
And u did sweet fa except bitch at anyone who ever did anything
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Post by squareball on Mar 12, 2015 8:37:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 8:52:25 GMT
accept your defense Razil, BUT where and what were the trust doing when Slater and Jiminez were destroying the club, running it into the ground. IRC the "trust" were opposed to the club relocating ie progressing, with investment, acquiring some kind of "community" order on the ground, hence drawing the battle lines for any future investor.
The "Trust" is simply hostile, fraught with the desire to reminisce in past glories, be that CP or winning the L1 championship.
I was open to the "trusts" manifesto, but more importantly I DONT jump on bandwagons.
Enjoy the ride
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razil
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Post by razil on Mar 12, 2015 9:21:13 GMT
no because for example we have often recognised the economy of the network approach
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razil
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Post by razil on Mar 12, 2015 9:30:31 GMT
accept your defense Razil, BUT where and what were the trust doing when Slater and Jiminez were destroying the club, running it into the ground. IRC the "trust" were opposed to the club relocating ie progressing, with investment, acquiring some kind of "community" order on the ground, hence drawing the battle lines for any future investor. The "Trust" is simply hostile, fraught with the desire to reminisce in past glories, be that CP or winning the L1 championship. I was open to the "trusts" manifesto, but more importantly I DONT jump on bandwagons. Enjoy the ride I agree with you about bandwagons, not my thing either we actually formed while it was all going wrong with Slater and Co ACV is actually quite weak, and more symbolic, it also has a positive value which the new owners actually used as part of their marketing/pr. We made sure we talked to the club about in actually delayed application by 6 weeks to help them avoid any complications, fact was so many grounds can get it, its not really a game changer. for buyers we were building but were also constructively critical, on one occasion accused by Mr Henry Hates, of being too soft on the club Its also a harder argument to make when people clearly have run out of cash and want to sell, I think the view at that stage was they would move on soon its been said before but we've also carried interviews with KM and Phil Chapple, and had Murray at various events I don't think we live in the past, but I do think there is something special about the Powell era, because he is a Charlton man, and when we had Murray, Varney, Airman all in the club and achieving success that was a pretty special if all too brief era, call me a sentimentalist, but football isn't all about money or even being in the premiership
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Post by sidcupsid on Mar 12, 2015 10:20:24 GMT
And u did sweet fa except bitch at anyone who ever did anything So true Razil, you just get so sick of his (and oldmod) moaning.As a Charlton fan I joined the forum a few years ago because I like to read good things about the club. Now we know things are not all 'sunshine and roses' But FFS these two get the gold medal for negativity. Most people on here applauded Reams for his chat with KM but you just knew these two would come out and moan about it. I personally think the pair of them are a waste of space and the forum would be a better place without them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 10:44:37 GMT
And u did sweet fa except bitch at anyone who ever did anything And remind us all again precisely what you did Barnie- apart from running amok with the Grecian 2000, and doing that cringeworthy Delia Smith impression on the pitch?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 10:46:24 GMT
And u did sweet fa except bitch at anyone who ever did anything So true Razil, you just get so sick of his (and oldmod) moaning.As a Charlton fan I joined the forum a few years ago because I like to read good things about the club. Now we know things are not all 'sunshine and roses' But FFS these two get the gold medal for negativity. Most people on here applauded Reams for his chat with KM but you just knew these two would come out and moan about it. I personally think the pair of them are a waste of space and the forum would be a better place without them. Just out of polite interest, why did you applaud Reams for his 2 min chat with Meire ? He was sworn to secrecy about their brief chinwag - apart from a couple of rip snorting platitudes - what has he told you?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 11:02:55 GMT
accept your defense Razil, BUT where and what were the trust doing when Slater and Jiminez were destroying the club, running it into the ground. IRC the "trust" were opposed to the club relocating ie progressing, with investment, acquiring some kind of "community" order on the ground, hence drawing the battle lines for any future investor. The "Trust" is simply hostile, fraught with the desire to reminisce in past glories, be that CP or winning the L1 championship. I was open to the "trusts" manifesto, but more importantly I DONT jump on bandwagons. Enjoy the ride I agree with you about bandwagons, not my thing either we actually formed while it was all going wrong with Slater and Co ACV is actually quite weak, and more symbolic, it also has a positive value which the new owners actually used as part of their marketing/pr. We made sure we talked to the club about in actually delayed application by 6 weeks to help them avoid any complications, fact was so many grounds can get it, its not really a game changer. for buyers we were building but were also constructively critical, on one occasion accused by Mr Henry Hates, of being too soft on the club Its also a harder argument to make when people clearly have run out of cash and want to sell, I think the view at that stage was they would move on soon its been said before but we've also carried interviews with KM and Phil Chapple, and had Murray at various events I don't think we live in the past, but I do think there is something special about the Powell era, because he is a Charlton man, and when we had Murray, Varney, Airman all in the club and achieving success that was a pretty special if all too brief era, call me a sentimentalist, but football isn't all about money or even being in the premiership
sadly now days it is , if you want a softly softly, wrap me up in cotton wool club then seek one in the lower divisions.
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Post by seriouslyred on Mar 12, 2015 11:11:17 GMT
As Razil states we were criticised quite viciously in the time before the takeover. Mundell Fleming and I wrote a piece on the club finances and the first draft was extremely aggressive. Mainly because it was written the day after we folded (yet again) vs Millwall. The club questioned the accuracy and tone and helped us get it right. In the end the forecast was £100k out on £13m income and £18m expenses. The point is we explained the losses and this in turn prevented a certain element going completely over the top about the club falling over.
Anyone can ask what did you do or why didn't you do that. My simple response is where we're you at the trust meetings, the trust road show around Kent or in the meetings with directors and management?!
We didn't attack Slater and Jiminez because that would have been empty rhetoric and serve no purpose. We knew they were out of cash and the irony was that by not strengthening the squad in summer 2013 they sunk us into a relegation battle which in turn killed the asking price.
The summer after we finished 9th they were looking for £40m and I heard they had an offer of £35m which fell through - In the end they received less than half which meant they lost money on the c.£18m they put in to fund our promotion and losses for three seasons.
People think I'm grandstanding but I thank Slater, Jiminez and Powell for getting us out of League 1 and keeping us in the championship. And then selling us to someone who can afford to take the Baton and run the next lap of the race.
Many, many fans have suggested why don't you attack this or that including Henry Irving. My response is simple and complex:
No.1 priority for the fans is a dialogue with the club whereas priority no. 653 is to open a museum. You simply can't build a dialogue if you are abusing the other party and questioning their integrity and competence. And you can't build one based on unilateral demands. In addition if you want to build Trust numbers then you need tangible activities like ACV or distribution of leaflets promoting football for a fiver.
These show the fans what you stand for and it takes maturity and subtlety to maintain that position. From becoming trusted you gain influence and access.
And I think that is why the Trust is attracting criticism right now. That's where I would differ from Razil because from the outside the criticism looks justified and damaging. I would go further and state that if the Trust continues on this path the outcome won't be good.
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Post by squareball on Mar 12, 2015 11:37:53 GMT
no because for example we have often recognised the economy of the network approach we have got some great players through the cheaper option and millions were wasted on failures in the past. Surely there is room to acknowledge these facts. Buying big guarantees nothing. I think that should be noted too.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 15:25:27 GMT
My last post for a while, but please note this is my personal expression rather than a Trust statement or one on behalf of anyone else.
The Trust board has people from a variety of backgrounds, as would be correct for a democratic member organisation accountable to a national one. It isn't wanting for senior level experience, and indeed a few have experience of running businesses they own. There is a balancing act to be done in the decisions we take. We have a responsibility to our constitutional objectives and to our members.
In our judgement that included running that Chris Powell interview. It was not our comment, we'd not expected him to comment quite so candidly as he'd long kept his own counsel on those events, but it was an interview we felt supporters would want to read and in parts spoke directly to our current goals. We intentionally provided balancing commentary throughout the rest of the publication.
Notwithstanding, there is little point in engagement if it doesn't involve mutual permission to criticise constructively. Without that engagement, we still have the responsibility to be critical where the club is acting in contravention of our objectives and not in the interests of supporters, which are broader than simply the latest run of results whatever posters would have you believe. We have a long track record of acting to the benefit of the club, some of which they have privately taken up themselves.
Change is usually intended to reap positive results, and none of us are opposed to change. The best change takes people along with it, as resistance to change is frequent if they're not. It needs to be managed correctly and empathetically to your market, particularly if what you are changing has an impact on your customers or a culture in which they are invested.
I don't believe we have issued threats to the owner, nor was the public meeting in any way an attempt to topple the owner. It was an opportunity for people to express views, a wide range of such were indeed expressed, and to seek consensus. We are now acting on that consensus. There are no plans to topple RD even if we could, which is somewhat fanciful. We recognise that some good things have been done, but we also observe that a large number of season ticket holders are not coming to games at the moment. It is a fact that the run of results hasn't arrested that, so we must conclude their reasons are more likely to be those they express: that they feel disenfranchised.
It is possible and reasonable that the club are trying to change the culture to be more available to a younger generation of supporters. However, if that is the case then what they are outworking is alienating their existing ones. I don't think many on here would argue anything but that it would be the best outcome if more people came to games regardless of their age, and certainly we shouldn't be driving long standing supporters away.
So we'll continue to try to do the right thing as we've been elected to the board by our members to do. We will make mistakes along the way and we won't please everyone all the time. However I will repeat what I've said many many times. It's easy to stand on the sidelines and snipe at those who are volunteers giving up a lot of their spare time to try to make a positive difference. It would be better to get involved wouldn't it, or at least offer constructive criticism. Otherwise you're only acting as you're accusing the Trust of doing. If you disagree with the way the Trust is run, join and influence as a member or even stand for election. In the meantime, I'm not sure what is being achieved by knocking those who are working hard for all of you and everyone else.
Thanks for your time Rich
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Post by overthetop on Mar 12, 2015 16:03:59 GMT
Problem is Rich, I see plenty of people attempting to give constructive criticism who are either being ignored or 'ganged up' on by trust members for daring to question issues like the Powell interview. I accept you din't expect him to be so candid, but to publish it the week after the 'public meeting' is adding fuel to the flames.
I'm starting to think that it's a deliberate ploy so that the CEO doesn't talk directly to you. Why for instance are there no time lines set? Why even mention the possibility of 'direct action' at this stage - hardly conciliatory?
Who are these "400" who mandated the Trust to act on behalf of "5000" trust members? Slightly discriminatory not to have the option for those who were unable to travel to Woolwich. Non Trust members at the event get a say on the Trust direction, but I don't! Something it not right or democratic there.
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razil
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Post by razil on Mar 12, 2015 18:53:40 GMT
Lol I wont gnaw anyone up if they offer constructive rational criticism, but I will argue the case no apologies. And I am human, 44, and sometimes a bit grumpy myself.. Problem is some offer the same broken record often personal and sometimes abusive bordering on slanderous trolling bs which unfortunately will drive people away from this forum which is a shame cos I believe in choice, and the rights of the sensible folk herein but a bit more grown up respect would not go amiss from some members. R
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 20:18:40 GMT
Lol I wont gnaw anyone up if they offer constructive rational criticism, but I will argue the case no apologies. And I am human, 44, and sometimes a bit grumpy myself.. Problem is some offer the same broken record often personal and sometimes abusive bordering on slanderous trolling bs which unfortunately will drive people away from this forum which is a shame cos I believe in choice, and the rights of the sensible folk herein but a bit more grown up respect would not go amiss from some members. R If you are referring to me Barney, then I apologise for libelling you by implying that you slap on the Grecian 2000. On reflection, it looks more like creosote.
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Post by reamsofverse on Mar 12, 2015 21:17:50 GMT
To be honest Razil I've been reading about people being driven away from this forum for years.....it isn't going to happen mate.
We'll never be another CL even if they are in decline but truth is I wouldn't want us to be.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 22:48:58 GMT
To be honest Razil I've been reading about people being driven away from this forum for years.....it isn't going to happen mate. We'll never be another CL even if they are in decline but truth is I wouldn't want us to be. ITTV is a pub...full of ordinary geezers. Disagreeing, arguing, taking the piss etc. A bit like real life. CL is a school where it's best not to upset the teacher or the prefects. NOT 606 is a rest home where you go to when you've had a hissy fit.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2015 8:20:01 GMT
And u did sweet fa except bitch at anyone who ever did anything For someone representing a potential 5000 supporters, thats not a very professional retort
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2015 8:21:47 GMT
you taking the piss ? "Mundell Fleming" ??
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2015 8:31:32 GMT
Lol I wont gnaw anyone up if they offer constructive rational criticism, but I will argue the case no apologies. And I am human, 44, and sometimes a bit grumpy myself.. Problem is some offer the same broken record often personal and sometimes abusive bordering on slanderous trolling bs which unfortunately will drive people away from this forum which is a shame cos I believe in choice, and the rights of the sensible folk herein but a bit more grown up respect would not go amiss from some members. R them in green houses and all that ............
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2015 8:46:50 GMT
After being told by Razil to pay a fiver to read the Powell interview it has gone up for free two days later. I can only assume that was another attempt to get one more member to join the other 78,000.
Not only was it a huge anti-climax (suprise suprise, just trying to get more fivers weren't you), it was riddled with missing words. The whole magazines layout is pathetically bad, I reckon my 6 year old could whip something better up in Microsoft paint in no time, just amateur from top to bottom. About time you disband isn't it?
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razil
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Post by razil on Mar 13, 2015 9:37:28 GMT
I resigned a week or so ago so I can say what I want
The Trust has paid members who have benefits, and one is priority over the web version of tnt.
Anyway I was asked if i would post on here more often but I will decline for now as I need a break - you can probably tell. Blokes in a pub is fine but I dont enjoy the unnecessary (and anonymous) abuse, and now I have 'retired' I don't feel obliged to.
I admire anyone who runs a forum or group so best of luck with it
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2015 10:23:48 GMT
I resigned a week or so ago so I can say what I want The Trust has paid members who have benefits, and one is priority over the web version of tnt. Anyway I was asked if i would post on here more often but I will decline for now as I need a break - you can probably tell. Blokes in a pub is fine but I dont enjoy the unnecessary (and anonymous) abuse, and now I have 'retired' I don't feel obliged to. I admire anyone who runs a forum or group so best of luck with it Didn't realise I abused you? No reason for you to leave, I applaud the fact you put in countless hours of your own time to do something for the good of the club, unfortunately some terrible decisions have been made by the trust since it was formed.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2015 11:02:55 GMT
As I feared, the Trust has blown it totally with that pointless public meeting. Katrien Meire says the Trust has "disrespected" her with their 'we want to talk to the organ-grinder not the monkey' attitude - and she has a point. Can't see they will ever get through her door now and she will confine her talking to groups such as East Kent Addicks and Bromley Addicks. But then the Trust say they don't want to talk to her, they only want to talk to 'the owner'...
A shame because the Trust was a good idea but now looks quite redundant, however many members it signs up.
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Post by seriouslyred on Mar 13, 2015 13:32:16 GMT
As I feared, the Trust has blown it totally with that pointless public meeting. Katrien Meire says the Trust has "disrespected" her with their 'we want to talk to the organ-grinder not the monkey' attitude - and she has a point. Can't see they will ever get through her door now and she will confine her talking to groups such as East Kent Addicks and Bromley Addicks. But then the Trust say they don't want to talk to her, they only want to talk to 'the owner'... A shame because the Trust was a good idea but now looks quite redundant, however many members it signs up. It's a year since I resigned from the Trust board. The Trust has a new Chair who by all accounts is a reasonable guy (not like that Razil fella!). The chair can either rearrange the deck chairs or he can take powerful remedial action to get back on track. Given that the Trust chair was a fans rep (or director) for a couple of years I'm sure he will have a working relationship with Richard Murray. Ideally they can sit down and work out what to do about this. Reading about last night's Bromley Addicks meeting tells us all we need to know. I won't prescribe solutions online but I will try to contact people offline. I have no idea if they have appetite to hear what I have to say but I have the benefit of the experience of developing a successful relationship with Slater, Murray and Prothero plus the management team at that time. The Trust is nowhere without a working relationship and they need to wake up to this instead of moaning about KM or RD not talking to them.
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Post by overthetop on Mar 13, 2015 13:41:58 GMT
As I feared, the Trust has blown it totally with that pointless public meeting. Katrien Meire says the Trust has "disrespected" her with their 'we want to talk to the organ-grinder not the monkey' attitude - and she has a point. Can't see they will ever get through her door now and she will confine her talking to groups such as East Kent Addicks and Bromley Addicks. But then the Trust say they don't want to talk to her, they only want to talk to 'the owner'... A shame because the Trust was a good idea but now looks quite redundant, however many members it signs up. So Trust Board members are falling by the wayside, only to be replaced by by the old guard of the G21. It's like the Russian revolution and subsequent Bolshevik revolution all over again. All we need now is comrade Everitt to turn up in his beret to have the full house.
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Post by seriouslyred on Mar 13, 2015 14:03:35 GMT
Comrade Everett is a full on adviser to the Trust these days. That was not allowed on my watch. This is just one of a few changes made after I left which make it impossible for the club to engage.
The Powell interview is just a symptom of a complete misunderstanding of the rules of the game. There is a much wider malaise where the term "critical friend" is used as licence by some to have a pop at the club.
The whole thing is all the more rediculous given the vast improvement in the squad and the revelations last night about player extension negotiations, summer acquisitions and a promise of January 2016 spending if we are there or thereabouts.
If the Trust doesn't change it will soon get the message as 100 members come up for renewal every month. Two of my family have already declined to renew. How long before membership goes below 1,000?
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