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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 20:41:19 GMT
Sadie, if you cant establish why I'm against the "Trust" from my posts on this thread, then your more stupid than I thought ;-) Its an un-elected board that has invites to meetings where that are not allowed to divulge the content back to the fans , you and I , this is not a Trust , its an inner ring of self important busy bodies that like to be "ITK" !! So, to answer my question you don't have a problem with there being a trust just those on the board? So if the board were to disperse and the board members were elected by the supporters by a democratic system you would be happy with the fact we have one...? not at all, the Trust was stared on a pack of lies and scare tactics. I'd like to see the agenda, the business plan and the 5 / 10 year forecast as to what "they" wish to achieve. I've asked for evidence of a democratic vote taking place yet nothing comes forward, pay a fiver and you get what your given, its not a voice its a "political" bandwagon for the under achieving.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 20:44:42 GMT
once again the anorak Charlton fan comes out the closet , why not , instead of posting a link to already well established "Trusts" , convince me and the other 25'000 supporters why and UN-ELECTED board, with history of self importance , should be the "voice of the fans" . Was it not these people that said the ground was going to be sold ? What exactly has RD done wrong apart from bail us out and sack an inept manager who ran out of ideas ? Please enlighten us. You know full well that when the idea of setting up a Charlton Athletic Supporters Trust was floated there were flyers and message board posts advertising a venue for interested supporters to meet and see where it went. The driving force supporters were largely those still in office today. We all know who they are. At the point where it was decided by this group of supporters that they would have a go at getting the Trust up and running there were no officials. Pretty much by default those who were driving the idea forward took the seats on the fledgling trust board. At that point democracy didn't come into it. There were not enough people to hold an election. From that point on the Chair of the trust supported by the other board members have created a trust membership and network in a very short space of time that other football clubs trusts have been unable to do. That's from scratch with no experience or expertise in such matters. It is remarkable. when CASTrust holds it's AGM there will be elections for office and any member can stand. I put it to you that if you feel that those running the trust now are not doing a good job then you should consider standing and driving it forward to the beat of your drum. i won't hold my breath though. It's far easier to stand on the sidelines and snipe and do nothing. what "job" are they doing then ? I'm yet to see any kind of directive ,,,
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Post by Reamsisgod on Aug 28, 2014 20:52:59 GMT
You know full well that when the idea of setting up a Charlton Athletic Supporters Trust was floated there were flyers and message board posts advertising a venue for interested supporters to meet and see where it went. The driving force supporters were largely those still in office today. We all know who they are. At the point where it was decided by this group of supporters that they would have a go at getting the Trust up and running there were no officials. Pretty much by default those who were driving the idea forward took the seats on the fledgling trust board. At that point democracy didn't come into it. There were not enough people to hold an election. From that point on the Chair of the trust supported by the other board members have created a trust membership and network in a very short space of time that other football clubs trusts have been unable to do. That's from scratch with no experience or expertise in such matters. It is remarkable. when CASTrust holds it's AGM there will be elections for office and any member can stand. I put it to you that if you feel that those running the trust now are not doing a good job then you should consider standing and driving it forward to the beat of your drum. i won't hold my breath though. It's far easier to stand on the sidelines and snipe and do nothing. what "job" are they doing then ? I'm yet to see any kind of directive ,,, For fucks sake Andy it is so obvious a Blow job for anyone who blindly follows them
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Post by villain on Aug 28, 2014 20:59:03 GMT
Think the last poster has just about summed up the quality of this discussion. Over and out.
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Post by reamsofverse on Aug 28, 2014 21:01:42 GMT
Have to agree with that, perhaps now's a good time to tuck this one in for the night.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 21:14:02 GMT
Well done to our pro Tust members...I think you might have just sunk the good ship CAST. To be fair to seriouslyred, he made a very good case for joining the Trust. It was only when the hapless 'villain' came along like some lower league clogger mistiming his tackles, and ruining all of sr's well-argued advocacy by denouncing everyone who doesn't support the Trust as "small-minded"" and ''ignorant". And when challenged, he didn't back down , he just came back for more, adding "vindictiveness" to his litany of abuse directed at those who dare to disagree with him. I didn't want to agree with reams on this. But if 'villain' represents hows the Trust choses to operate, then I have to conclude reluctantly that reams is correct and the Trust as currently constituted is part of the problem and cannot be part of the solution.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 21:18:50 GMT
case dismissed, lack of evidence !
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Post by villain on Aug 28, 2014 21:26:57 GMT
Read back through the thread incorruptible and you will see it is awash with insults against individuals associated with or supporting CASTrust. Many of the comments show little if any understanding of the Trusts efforts of even fundamental issues which is why I suggest that those posters are basing their opinion without much knowledge of the facts. That is I think is fair to say ignorance and small minded.
As an example I cite Reams provocatively suggesting that the Trust didn't have the balls to stand up to Jiminez or Slater. I can assure you it was not for the lack of trying. To engage takes both sides but under that particular regime there was no communication with the Trust or the fan base in any form. As far as I am aware TJ never once addressed the fans of Charlton Athletic. ACV was gained by the trust under that regime so something that might have irritated the owner was achieved but conveniently forgotten by those that don't want to remember.
Another poster although critical of the trust as is his right was still able to post as to why the trust wasn't around in the TJ/MS era.
Can you see now why I have the temerity to suggest many of the comments are posted with little regard for the facts.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 21:37:26 GMT
case dismissed, lack of evidence ! I think this can be said for both sides. CAST are yet to prove their use and agenda according to a few of you and those that doubt them/don't like them, apart from the democracy side of things are yet to prove a valid negative. Why not sit back and wait and see how the trust pans out, some of us may be disappointed in them and not be renewing our memberships or some of us may be pleasantly surprised at their growth and their positive influence. They are still very much a new organisation and as such it is very difficult to make an intelligent snd informed opinion of them. I don't think even they know if they'll a) get enough members to make a difference and b) be of any use to the club and actually be heard by the board. I support them as I like the idea of them and feel that it will not do any harm to have a united group of supporters trying to do what's best for the football club I love. I actually hope I am right and they'll do good and grow enough to be able to give a fair opinion of the majority of Charlton fans. I don't think £5 a year is a lot of money part with either especially if it works. Let's just see.
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Post by Reamsisgod on Aug 28, 2014 21:38:36 GMT
Read back through the thread incorruptible and you will see it is awash with insults against individuals associated with or supporting CASTrust. Many of the comments show little if any understanding of the Trusts efforts of even fundamental issues which is why I suggest that those posters are basing their opinion without much knowledge of the facts. That is I think is fair to say ignorance and small minded. As an example I cite Reams provocatively suggesting that the Trust didn't have the balls to stand up to Jiminez or Slater. I can assure you it was not for the lack of trying. To engage takes both sides but under that particular regime there was no communication with the Trust or the fan base in any form. As far as I am aware TJ never once addressed the fans of Charlton Athletic. ACV was gained by the trust under that regime so something that might have irritated the owner was achieved but conveniently forgotten by those that don't want to remember. Another poster although critical of the trust as is his right was still able to post as to why the trust wasn't around in the TJ/MS era. Can you see now why I have the temerity to suggest many of the comments are posted with little regard for the facts. Villain there are no clear facts. There is no clear objective of what the Trust stands for and this leads to a lack of trust. In fighting between supporters shows that there is a lack of unity between us, my guess is that if we were to lobby all CAFC and ask do we need a Trust the answer would be no but this is only my opinion
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Post by discocafc on Aug 28, 2014 21:45:35 GMT
Reams, if you don't like what the trust does why don't you put forward some idea's and tell them how Swansea's trust operates better than theirs?
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Post by seriouslyred on Aug 28, 2014 21:59:10 GMT
The eight were invited by the club either because of their work with fan groups or in my case I was there representing the trust board. The Trust has asked fans repeatedly and the two main priorities are dialogue with the club and initiatives to build the gates. Therefore why ask the fans again? In short, one would have to ask the club about their approach. Each of those seven came from groups with between 200 and 400 members each and the Trust has 1,000 members so sure eight fans known by the club or people representing 3,800 fans. [if fans don't join groups how can they be represented] Going forwards, perhaps one could work with the club to expand the exercise over time and allow the Trust to consult fans etc. But one has to remember the context at the time. I used this as example of what could be developed with fans of all groupings being canvassed and then perhaps lending their support to promoting certain games. I could say a lot, lot more but I think it appropriate to consult and certain things should remain confidential. All I would say is that the practice is hard work compared to the theory and that there are a lot of green eyed monsters ready to criticise your every move! It sometimes felt like a rewrite of Life of Brian! So join in or don't join...if posters care about the Trust direction then go to the Agm or the trust stall on matchdays.
Regarding Anti-duchatelet rhetoric? Never on my watch! Maybe by individuals but that's freedom of speech innit?! I've tracked progress under the new owner and had some scary stupid arguments with fans on CL about how Slater, Jiminez and Prothero prepared the canvas ready for Duchatelet! It was no accident that 20+ players left this summer along with the management team. Only today some joker posted how he wished that last summers squad of 37 players should have been on long term contracts despite having watched a relegation struggle for 9 months. Slater and Jiminez exited at the right time leaving the club one division higher than they found it. They also left the contract situation ideally positioned for Duchatelet with all u23 talent signed up on long term deals. Oh and a brand you management team behind the scenes. Why would the Trust look to take on Jiminez and Slater when they were trying to exit with their shirts still on their backs?! People may not know this but the second tranche of Tv money arrives in January... After that the cash flow is a sea of red until August except for season tickets. It was vital the club was sold when it was and staying up was the only goal. Rallying behind the cup run and the financial gains was one way to mobilise positive support...loved the trip up to Sheffield... The game was shite and Dyer comes out end of season saying we ain't playing network players! That worked out well for him and Powell! So long story short the Trust is at a crossroads now...have to laugh at this thread going into meltdown now and again...but fair play to the mods calling time out - nice one I have some other thoughts but bottom line is that over time the fans get the groupings they deserve.
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Post by reamsofverse on Aug 28, 2014 22:14:19 GMT
Reams, if you don't like what the trust does why don't you put forward some idea's and tell them how Swansea's trust operates better than theirs? They have already done that themselves I believe but learned nothing from it. The Swansea TRUST own the club, something Charlton's hapless lot will never do.
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Post by reamsofverse on Aug 28, 2014 22:17:45 GMT
I think Seriouslyred's excellent post is a good place to draw a line under this now, we have all made our views known so well done to all for making it a good debate.
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Post by reamsofverse on Aug 29, 2014 16:44:21 GMT
Now I can moderate it this thread is re-open.
Murray will be the guest of the TRUST at their upcoming AGM at the Bugle Horn!
Haven't we been here before? I do recall he sat in front of fans not too long ago and spouted a load of ballcocks?
RD and KM will not be in attendance like I said they wouldn't and never will so puppet Richard will face the hordes of TRUST members....in a pub!!
Will the penny ever drop?
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Post by seriouslyred on Aug 29, 2014 20:45:13 GMT
Reams, if you don't like what the trust does why don't you put forward some idea's and tell them how Swansea's trust operates better than theirs? They have already done that themselves I believe but learned nothing from it. The Swansea TRUST own the club, something Charlton's hapless lot will never do. Allow me to correct you there...the Swansea fans Trust own 20% of the club not 100% They were junior partners and helped pick up the pieces. Clearly the Swansea board saw it as strategically useful to have fans on board helping to rebuild the club as they climbed through the leagues. In retrospect Charlton fans made a strategic error of quite massive proportions in the 90s. They failed to establish and maintain an independent, incorporated body which should have taken an equity stake in exchange for the work rebuilding the club. I owned shares in CAFC as did many fans and I would have happily exchanged them for a share in a trust if a few other fans would have done the same. CAFC supporters club fell over, the supporters director was abolished and fans equity was wiped out. The irony is that the fans most vocal in that era and now are the ones who failed to establish a Trust when equity was available. Two choices now...make up the lost ground or wait for the club to fall over. Or perhaps an owner who sees merit in fan engagement. The problem the club and new owner has now is that there are too many gobshites and egos around, as you say, too many amateurs. My experience in the Trust suggests that Jiminez, Slater and Duchatelet all see the route to the loot is on the pitch and at the academy. If fans want a collective then the gobby ones need to shut up and a supporters trust needs to tell them where to go if they continue to be noisy and question every fecking decision made by the executive. If the Trust is to hover around then build it needs a vision for this new era and discipline. I don't know the viewing figures for this site but I do know them for Charlton life and the Trust. Not mine to disclose but they are fairly spectacular for 18 months work. And I know them by stand, by demographic and by post code! Without being specific we are talking thousands of fans clicking week in week out. So by all means criticise the Trust leadership and direction but attacking the Trust is tantamount to attacking thousands of fans. The irony is we agree that the Trust should not be over reaching by waffling about day to day involvement. The club executive have enough to do without the likes of Henry and Airman wandering the corridors gathering information ready to leak at the first sign of trouble. I would conclude by suggesting that the real question is what should the Trust aspire to and who are the best people to lead it to get there. Who knows it might be fans who post on here?!
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Post by reamsofverse on Aug 29, 2014 20:59:49 GMT
I'm not doing it mate not a chance!!!
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Post by seriouslyred on Aug 29, 2014 21:02:28 GMT
Now I can moderate it this thread is re-open. Murray will be the guest of the TRUST at their upcoming AGM at the Bugle Horn! Haven't we been here before? I do recall he sat in front of fans not too long ago and spouted a load of ballcocks? RD and KM will not be in attendance like I said they wouldn't and never will so puppet Richard will face the hordes of TRUST members....in a pub!! Will the penny ever drop? The club chairman speaks at the Trust AGM - what's not too like? Go along to listen or to ask questions - I will if I have time. The reality is that it is the club chairmans role to liaise with fans and he will have limits set by the owner. Now the trust could play maverick and rescind the invite but may I remind you that the most requested function of the Trust is to have a relationship with the club. Inside the club pissing out is far better than the other way in my book. I fully understand that some think Murray at a meeting is repetitive and inadequate. So perhaps someone asks what else the club wants to do to work with fans. It's a big space and more, much more can be done... On the other hand it's a few beers, talking Charlton with someone who has had millions invested for 15(?) years.
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Post by seriouslyred on Aug 29, 2014 21:07:53 GMT
I'm not doing it mate not a chance!!! Go on, give it a crack! You'd love to be on the same Trust board as PragueAddick.. Could make a fortune with Trust popcorn as it all kicks off lol The more I think about it the more this is what we all need! Let me find out the deadline for nominations!
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Post by reamsofverse on Aug 29, 2014 21:11:42 GMT
Er No thanks mate but thanks for the consideration, I couldn't bare having to sit next to Pragueaddick all night listening to him waffling on about the network and Viktoria Plzen, both of which he knows very little about.
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Post by webbo on Aug 29, 2014 21:50:16 GMT
The trust as far as I can tell was set up as a witch hunt for RD based around the club moving grounds
I think you are mistaken.
The trust as far as I remember it was getting off the ground during the 2012 Olympics. That was on the back of a season when we finished a very cheery 9th. Mr Duchatelet only appeared on the scene at the end of 2013, or the start of this year, some 18 months later. No witch hunt.
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Post by villain on Aug 29, 2014 21:57:50 GMT
Correct Webbo. Exactly the type of mistakes regarding the trust that were being spouted by all and sundry on this thread yesterday evening and passed off as fact. I said it yesterday but much of the comment was based on lack of understanding and ignorance.
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Post by reamsofverse on Aug 29, 2014 22:01:51 GMT
So where were they between the 2012 Olympics and the arrival of RD? Running scared of Tony Jiminez that's where they were. Two years on they are holding meetings in a PUB!!! With Richard Murray!! Hasn't this been done before?
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Post by villain on Aug 29, 2014 22:07:15 GMT
Where would you like them to meet Reams ? The Royal Albert Hall perhaps. Incidently the trust were busy applying for ACV during the period you mention. In fact I remember you complaining that gaining ACV was a mistake that would jeopardise the Duchatelet takeover ?
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Post by seriouslyred on Aug 29, 2014 22:08:14 GMT
Er No thanks mate but thanks for the consideration, I couldn't bare having to sit next to Pragueaddick all night listening to him waffling on about the network and Viktoria Plzen, both of which he knows very little about. Most of the Trust meeting were by conference call. There's a downside to any group in terms of meetings, misunderstandings and trying to get ideas into action. And having to listen to people's pet interests which are great for them but take up chunks of your life that you will never see again! Perhaps that's why I woke up the day after the Trust rejected G21 attempts to lead it (!) and felt very strongly it was time for a break.
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Post by seriouslyred on Aug 29, 2014 22:35:43 GMT
There were previous attempts to start a trust - one guy told me how there were 300 fans at a meeting then 150 at the next then less and less until people gave up. In summer 2012 some fans got together...I first wandered down in September and there was a real plan to launch on 5th December, the 20th anniversary of getting back to the Valley. A whole range of admin and IT tasks needed to be executed to get incorporated and set up a website and membership system. No one else was doing anything to celebrate the return to the Valley and we were not sure until the last minute that the club would take the booking! Around 200 joined in the first month and the Trust continued to grow for the next 15 months. Contrary to some views expressed, the trust took the surveys seriously and look to use positive images of the club. One design guru threw up all kinds of images WITH the club badge - when t-shirts were printed we obtained permission from the club to use the badge, out of courtesy and in case someone got annoyed. The whole growth strategy was based on surveys, news and researching the finances. We didn't panic the fans about Jiminez and Slater because it wouldn't help and because it was clear they were trying to get out. By the beginning of the 2013-14 season we dreamt up the idea of a Trust stall on club premises outside the North. We spoke to fans, ran the ACV campaign Afka Bartram thought ACV might be the reason the Philadelphia deal fell over! Henry Irving attacked everything we did...the Trust membership and contact list rocketed! To the extent that we helped promote the back to the Valley dinner 21 with thousands of emails. So basically all we did was talk to fans and after a year or so the message got through that we weren't anti CAFC. Loved it! I met players like Kinsella and Kinsey, several ex-directors like Varney and CAFC creditors...and Prothero, Murray and Meire.
Anyone interested? They should get to the Agm and question the trust board direct about why and what next.
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Post by wellingaddick on Aug 30, 2014 0:51:29 GMT
It's interesting that the ACV keeps coming up in these discussion threads. I never thought it was that much of an achievement, to be honest. There were only two parties to overcome, to implement the ACV and both would have their reasons to support it.
Greenwich Council would note that the likes of Old Trafford already had an ACV, so it's not a ground breaking move and the Council would not want to risk the wrath of Charlton fans (no matter how representative of the supporter base), over such a matter. I'm sure 1990 remains fresh in their minds.
As for the Charlton owners at the time. There is no way MS and TJ ever had the money to even begin preliminary consultations about possibly moving the club to a different location. So for them, in essence they were stuck with the Valley regardless. Therefore, I can see them thinking, that having an ACV on the stadium, might at least help to protect their investment.
I'm not a member of the Trust, nor will I be fazed by this recruitment drive. I still believe that the survey in March caused more harm than good and of course the situation with G21 did nothing for the Trust's credibility. My fiver stays in my pocket!
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Post by picksy on Aug 30, 2014 1:54:46 GMT
Correct Webbo. Exactly the type of mistakes regarding the trust that were being spouted by all and sundry on this thread yesterday evening and passed off as fact. I said it yesterday but much of the comment was based on lack of understanding and ignorance. Do you ever have anything useful to say? If you are an example of the 'Trust' mentality, you know where you can stick it. In fact, if I was involved in trying to sign up new members, I'd be asking you to button it.
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Post by picksy on Aug 30, 2014 2:06:17 GMT
Where would you like them to meet Reams ? The Royal Albert Hall perhaps. Incidently the trust were busy applying for ACV during the period you mention. In fact I remember you complaining that gaining ACV was a mistake that would jeopardise the Duchatelet takeover ? Reams reaction at that time was quite understandable and one I totally agreed with because in the midst of negotiations, you don't need waves being made ans spanners being thrown in the works when we were desperate for a bona fide purchaser after getting knocked back by various other parties. And if meeting good old Dickie in a pub swells the pride, fill your boots, mate. Been there done that. (And that's when he actually made decisions).
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Post by reamsofverse on Aug 30, 2014 9:12:49 GMT
100% bang on the money wellingaddick, Mr (Hey guys look at me I'm important) Rick Everitt and his Hhillbilly mates thought that the World would stand up and listen especially when he has been walking around for a quarter of a decade still wearing his Back to the Valley badge.
The TRUST were embarrassed by G21's involvement it was like watching kids in a school play ground.
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