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Post by jonkool on Apr 21, 2014 17:30:09 GMT
I have kept clear of so many threads relating to the Trust.
In theory I love people power and the Trust should hit the spot. However I also believe in the capitalist system - it's far from perfect but now that communism is discredited it's the only game in town.
Therefore although the people should always be consulted in a well run enterprise, I just can't get away from the fact that if you are prepared to invest £14m to purchase a business you don't have to justify every aspect of your business plan.
The weakness of the Trust is that they can never realistically purchase the club and can only ask questions and wait patiently for responses or no responses.
I have no great negativity towards the Trust but consider that they are an indulgence and say good luck to those who are happy to give £5 for the pleasure to be part of the Trust organisation!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 23:04:09 GMT
Reams, what part of 'he sold it to his girlfriend' are you having trouble with? Because Staprix no longer owns the club doesn't mean RD doesn't remain its primary influencer. Time will tell, but as I said they've got 4 players on loan from Staprix owned clubs - seems he's not entirely remote, at the very least.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 23:18:38 GMT
Your stalker comments are well honed. However, Troll will not be tolerated. Hey you can't say you've been "watching" people for a year now and not expect to be called a stalker, have you been given consent to observe these people? If you're lonely I can get a few numbers for you ;-) Also, as one of the stalked (should that be capitalised?) do I get to read what you wrote about me? :-) I think suggestions the Trust is all about Chris Powell are ludicrous and as far from "the truth" as they could be. They were entitled to ask questions when there was a groundswell of opinion at the time of his sacking that it was the wrong decision. If that's all they'd done then that might be evidence you could pin such an accusation to but it's such a small part of what they're doing. I imagine they, like all of us should by now, have moved on. I think there are much more important questions to ask of the club, not least RD's vision for us and how that will be outworked in a strategic plan. After all, it was RD who mentioned his footballing strategy - why wouldn't he share that and get the fans behind him? As I've said previously, any club is stronger for having board-manager-fans in alignment - it was when divisions appeared in that triumverate it all went wrong for us. Even Reams has questioned motives, whether RD is really the power behind the throne for example, so it's clear there's room for reasonable doubt. Personally I do fear that the STVV fan who posted on CL is right - there's an uncomfortable familiarity of what come to pass with us so far about what he said had happened to them - but hope he isn't. When I get a bit of time I might copy the key messages here. From a business perspective it makes no sense for us not to prosper, but then we read of RD that for him Liege is much more than a business and one wonders if he cares enough in any terms to have a strategy for Charlton not just his network or another club in it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 6:29:41 GMT
@ Rik You are just inventing scenarios & questions that fit in with the answers you want to give. My objection to the Trust has got nothing to do with owners, viewpoints, or even legitimacy, although I would prefer it if they did not use phrases like "Charlton fans want to know" ...when they speak for less than 5% of us. My objection to the Trust is that it is yet another vehicle for yet another egotistical windbag to use to appear "important". The same as the museum. The Fans Forum. Target 10,000. G21. You name them. They are always fronted by the same people - frustrated blue collar workers who wish they had gone to University & then cracked it in life. Having failed to do so, they then use these vehicles to boost their own self esteem and egos.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 8:43:07 GMT
@ Rik You are just inventing scenarios & questions that fit in with the answers you want to give. My objection to the Trust has got nothing to do with owners, viewpoints, or even legitimacy, although I would prefer it if they did not use phrases like "Charlton fans want to know" ...when they speak for less than 5% of us. My objection to the Trust is that it is yet another vehicle for yet another egotistical windbag to use to appear "important". The same as the museum. The Fans Forum. Target 10,000. G21. You name them. They are always fronted by the same people - frustrated blue collar workers who wish they had gone to University & then cracked it in life. Having failed to do so, they then use these vehicles to boost their own self esteem and egos. Blue collar? I'm sure Henry, Prague, Razil and even Airman would be amused by that description of them. What you're betraying here is nothing more than a dislike of personalities. I know first hand that the Trust board are desperate to be representative on the basis of democracy - it's why they carry out those surveys, for example - but they can't make you join and help shape their message. I think the Trust could and should be the right vehicle for fans' voices to be heard, and the right focus for investigation and expression of concern at the strategy for and direction of the club. I respect your right to disagree, but your sniping at the individuals doesn't make the Trust a bad idea. If you think Razil is the wrong person join up and challenge him. Be part of the solution rather than standing to one side and whinging. Your views and that of others who share them should be heard. If they're patently the majority view I'll be as vocal as anyone in making sure they're heard - if they're not then expectation that a democratically thinking body looking to represent the catholic view should prioritise them is unrealistic. I've not heard anyone suggest that RD wants to destroy the club, but his interests may not be compatible with our priorities as fans. If they are then let's hear the plans. If not.... This was the case when our board moved to Selhurst with the intention of merging us with Palace, and the supporters club just shrugged and said, what can we do, they own the club. People like those involved with the Trust and even the G21 were those who refused to accept that and became part of the solution. We can all learn that lesson and be united in those things we all agree on. Because if, if, it turns out RD doesn't give a toss about what happens to CAFC we'll all have wished someone had stepped up.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 9:00:24 GMT
@ Rik You are just inventing scenarios & questions that fit in with the answers you want to give. My objection to the Trust has got nothing to do with owners, viewpoints, or even legitimacy, although I would prefer it if they did not use phrases like "Charlton fans want to know" ...when they speak for less than 5% of us. My objection to the Trust is that it is yet another vehicle for yet another egotistical windbag to use to appear "important". The same as the museum. The Fans Forum. Target 10,000. G21. You name them. They are always fronted by the same people - frustrated blue collar workers who wish they had gone to University & then cracked it in life. Having failed to do so, they then use these vehicles to boost their own self esteem and egos. Blue collar? I'm sure Henry, Prague, Razil and even Airman would be amused by that description of them. What you're betraying here is nothing more than a dislike of personalities. I know first hand that the Trust board are desperate to be representative on the basis of democracy - it's why they carry out those surveys, for example - but they can't make you join and help shape their message. I think the Trust could and should be the right vehicle for fans' voices to be heard, and the right focus for investigation and expression of concern at the strategy for and direction of the club. I respect your right to disagree, but your sniping at the individuals doesn't make the Trust a bad idea. If you think Razil is the wrong person join up and challenge him. Be part of the solution rather than standing to one side and whinging. Your views and that of others who share them should be heard. If they're patently the majority view I'll be as vocal as anyone in making sure they're heard - if they're not then expectation that a democratically thinking body looking to represent the catholic view should prioritise them is unrealistic. I've not heard anyone suggest that RD wants to destroy the club, but his interests may not be compatible with our priorities as fans. If they are then let's hear the plans. If not.... This was the case when our board moved to Selhurst with the intention of merging us with Palace, and the supporters club just shrugged and said, what can we do, they own the club. People like those involved with the Trust and even the G21 were those who refused to accept that and became part of the solution. We can all learn that lesson and be united in those things we all agree on. Because if, if, it turns out RD doesn't give a toss about what happens to CAFC we'll all have wished someone had stepped up. Rik I was at Greenwich Town Hall the night we got the green light to go back. I was also at our final game there before we were locked out, & helped clear the pitch etc when we went back. Forgive me when I say I have probably observed some of the personalities that you mention over a longer period of time than you have. There is absolutely no comparison between what happened in 1984-85, and now. It is laughable. I don't ever remember Mark Hulyer standing outside the Valley giving away free match programmes, or John Fryer promising to invest £600,000 in a new pitch this summer. The Trust, G21, & Fans Forum are just creating Aunt Sallies. Its an ego trip from a handful who have had their noses put out of joint by a new owner (RD) who won't play Murray's old divide and rule game amongst the fans. There is also a legitimate charge of rank hypocrisy that can be levelled against all of the fans you mentioned. Why was each and every one of them so silent when Richard Murray was busy ripping the Club a new arsehole? Ben Hayes - Fan Director on 1% turnout. Murray cheerleader par excellence Richard Hunt - Murray's unofficial source of every story he wants to go public Rick Everitt - Head of Whatever under...Murray Razil - Jonny cum lately, turns off a lot of fans from the Trust just by his grating manner (fact)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 11:54:59 GMT
Blue collar? I'm sure Henry, Prague, Razil and even Airman would be amused by that description of them. What you're betraying here is nothing more than a dislike of personalities. I know first hand that the Trust board are desperate to be representative on the basis of democracy - it's why they carry out those surveys, for example - but they can't make you join and help shape their message. I think the Trust could and should be the right vehicle for fans' voices to be heard, and the right focus for investigation and expression of concern at the strategy for and direction of the club. I respect your right to disagree, but your sniping at the individuals doesn't make the Trust a bad idea. If you think Razil is the wrong person join up and challenge him. Be part of the solution rather than standing to one side and whinging. Your views and that of others who share them should be heard. If they're patently the majority view I'll be as vocal as anyone in making sure they're heard - if they're not then expectation that a democratically thinking body looking to represent the catholic view should prioritise them is unrealistic. I've not heard anyone suggest that RD wants to destroy the club, but his interests may not be compatible with our priorities as fans. If they are then let's hear the plans. If not.... This was the case when our board moved to Selhurst with the intention of merging us with Palace, and the supporters club just shrugged and said, what can we do, they own the club. People like those involved with the Trust and even the G21 were those who refused to accept that and became part of the solution. We can all learn that lesson and be united in those things we all agree on. Because if, if, it turns out RD doesn't give a toss about what happens to CAFC we'll all have wished someone had stepped up. Rik I was at Greenwich Town Hall the night we got the green light to go back. I was also at our final game there before we were locked out, & helped clear the pitch etc when we went back. Forgive me when I say I have probably observed some of the personalities that you mention over a longer period of time than you have. There is absolutely no comparison between what happened in 1984-85, and now. It is laughable. I don't ever remember Mark Hulyer standing outside the Valley giving away free match programmes, or John Fryer promising to invest £600,000 in a new pitch this summer. The Trust, G21, & Fans Forum are just creating Aunt Sallies. Its an ego trip from a handful who have had their noses put out of joint by a new owner (RD) who won't play Murray's old divide and rule game amongst the fans. There is also a legitimate charge of rank hypocrisy that can be levelled against all of the fans you mentioned. Why was each and every one of them so silent when Richard Murray was busy ripping the Club a new arsehole? Ben Hayes - Fan Director on 1% turnout. Murray cheerleader par excellence Richard Hunt - Murray's unofficial source of every story he wants to go public Rick Everitt - Head of Whatever under...Murray Razil - Jonny cum lately, turns off a lot of fans from the Trust just by his grating manner (fact) I'm quite sure your criticisms have some validity. I thought - and I've told him - that Ben Hayes let the VIP Director role go with nary a whimper. He has a different view, and I understand it but it's not fully persuaded me more couldn't have been done. I agree and disagree with Richard Hunt in equal measure - and we've most recently clashed (if that's the right word) on whether RD's network is a good thing or not - he's more sceptical than I am, but he might be right, time will tell. Rick - well, he's Rick, what you see is what you get, and Razil's profile's a recent thing but as a supporter he's been around the club for as long as you and I. But perhaps the key difference between us is that I'm not going to write off individuals - and certainly not the Trust - on the basis of whether I like these people or not. You might find Razil abrasive but that personality has got the Trust off the ground with a very respectable membership when others before him have failed. Perhaps it's because he doesn't have the baggage others have, perhaps it's because he's been like a dog with a bone, probably a combination of those and more. Will he be chair forever? That's for the members to decide isn't it? You're right - the situation today is very different from 1985 but that it's different doesn't mean that there is nothing to be concerned about. I'm not as worried as some others, not least because an English club outside the Premiership will be a drain on RD's resources of considerably more weight than any others in his network, but that's not to say that I don't see signs of what happened to STVV happening to us. I'd rather we had people being sceptical and proved wrong than people being overly trusting and proved wrong - wouldn't you? And the overriding question for me is simple. If RD, KM et al don't want to be badgered by supporters' groups, why not bring them into the vision, the strategy and the business plan and get them working with them to move it forward (and at no extra cost to the club)? Surreptitious dealings did no good for TJ/MS, but a degree of openness, trust and unity between club and fans can create results beyond the sum of the constituent parts. EDIT: I don't think we can presume that those individuals were silent re Richard Murray. The first three have had private access to him and I'd be surprised if some frank conversations hadn't taken place during that time. Airman's alluded to quite a few sharp disagreements over the years. There's a difference between what's public and what's actually happened, I'd not be so quick to judge.
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Post by reamsofverse on Apr 22, 2014 17:31:22 GMT
I have kept clear of so many threads relating to the Trust. In theory I love people power and the Trust should hit the spot. However I also believe in the capitalist system - it's far from perfect but now that communism is discredited it's the only game in town. Therefore although the people should always be consulted in a well run enterprise, I just can't get away from the fact that if you are prepared to invest £14m to purchase a business you don't have to justify every aspect of your business plan. The weakness of the Trust is that they can never realistically purchase the club and can only ask questions and wait patiently for responses or no responses. I have no great negativity towards the Trust but consider that they are an indulgence and say good luck to those who are happy to give £5 for the pleasure to be part of the Trust organisation! Swansea and Wrexham FC TRUSTS both own the club, ours never will as Jonkool says.
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Post by reamsofverse on Apr 22, 2014 17:53:38 GMT
rik please tell me where RD has come out and said that CAFC will be treated secondary to other clubs in his network?
Fans heard what he said about our players being loaned to SL and suddenly there was hell to play. RD has since come out and said he was misquoted or words to that affect. This is not another dig at CL but everyday I visit there what I leave with is an overwhelming feeling of amazement that so many people can congregate in one place but few have a good football brain or plethora of football knowledge.
Everybody is panicking over nothing, you seem like an intelligent bloke so do you really believe that RD see's us as his number two club? Just because Standard Liege are on the fringes of the CL and have one maybe two multi million pound players doesn't make them World Beaters, the Belgian League is not a great example of elite football, Leicester would walk it put it that way.
People really do need to be realsitic and have a look at the likes of Alcorcon, St Truiden, Carl Zeiss Jena and Upjest and see exactly who they are what leagues they play in, what the prize money is and finally what planet they are on which is different to our own because they are, with respect they are low level football clubs who are a million miles away to where we are. Ok RD thought he could shuffle the players around like he has at STVV but soon realised or advised what ever one you want to believe, that it won't work at Charlton because the level they play at is far superior to his other clubs. One of those advisors who has put him straight will be Jose Riga, the best thing that has happened to us in terms of putting RD in the picture, I don't think either realised how big a club we were when they took over.
You won't see Charlton players playing for Liege because Belgian prize money is below average. Champions League money is the carat for him but will they make it into the group stages? I doubt it. This is why I think that there will be movement in his priorities before to long, SL might be sending their players here not the other way around if we can get within touching distance of the Premier League . Riga knows the score and he also knows what it's going to take to get us there and it won't include Poyet and co heading to Belgium.
As for the TRUST again I disagree with you, they don't have any rights to ask any questions, sorry but that is the way it is.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 18:44:48 GMT
rik please tell me where RD has come out and said that CAFC will be treated secondary to other clubs in his network? Fans heard what he said about our players being loaned to SL and suddenly there was hell to play. RD has since come out and said he was misquoted or words to that affect. This is not another dig at CL but everyday I visit there what I leave with is an overwhelming feeling of amazement that so many people can congregate in one place but few have a good football brain or plethora of football knowledge. Everybody is panicking over nothing, you seem like an intelligent bloke so do you really believe that RD see's us as his number two club? Just because Standard Liege are on the fringes of the CL and have one maybe two multi million pound players doesn't make them World Beaters, the Belgian League is not a great example of elite football, Leicester would walk it put it that way. People really do need to be realsitic and have a look at the likes of Alcorcon, St Truiden, Carl Zeiss Jena and Upjest and see exactly who they are what leagues they play in, what the prize money is and finally what planet they are on which is different to our own because they are, with respect they are low level football clubs who are a million miles away to where we are. Ok RD thought he could shuffle the players around like he has at STVV but soon realised or advised what ever one you want to believe, that it won't work at Charlton because the level they play at is far superior to his other clubs. One of those advisors who has put him straight will be Jose Riga, the best thing that has happened to us in terms of putting RD in the picture, I don't think either realised how big a club we were when they took over. You won't see Charlton players playing for Liege because Belgian prize money is below average. Champions League money is the carat for him but will they make it into the group stages? I doubt it. This is why I think that there will be movement in his priorities before to long, SL might be sending their players here not the other way around if we can get within touching distance of the Premier League . Riga knows the score and he also knows what it's going to take to get us there and it won't include Poyet and co heading to Belgium. As for the TRUST again I disagree with you, they don't have any rights to ask any questions, sorry but that is the way it is. We'll agree to disagree on that. I think anyone has a right to ask questions, not necessarily a right to get answers, but I think it's in the club's interests to talk with organised groups of supporters. Re the 'treated secondary' point, I agree that RD hasn't said that and I also agree he was at best clumsy with his words in that BBC interview. That's not where my concern comes from Reams, and as I've said elsewhere I'm not as sceptical as some. It's actually more to do with the comments of the Sint Truiden fan who posted on CL and the eerie familiarity with events since (found the post): He does go on to say that this isn't necessarily a predictor for Charlton since he can't say where we are in RD's plans, but he cautions us about misplaced euphoria and the last bullet quoted above may be a cautionary tale. So for me a healthy dose of scepticism - even if misplaced - is reasonable. You're right and I agree, from a business perspective it makes no sense for Charlton not to receive the level of attention that will see us promoted to the Premier League sooner than later. Yet I read elsewhere that RD is a passionate fan of SL - perhaps explaining his comments about football being the new religion - and so it might not be business reasons at the fore at this experiment. That said, I also read that he's interested but lacks genuine passion, his primary goal being to prove he is the alchemist who can produce successful football that pays for itself. Who really knows what to believe - his videos are clearly the work of his PR. I don't know, it might all work out brilliantly and I hope it does. I'm a natural optimist but I find myself being cautious at this whole arrangement. I'm particularly cautious at his apparent dependence on the football intelligence of Dudu Dahan, who clearly knows nothing about English football if what came in in January is anything to go by. I want to believe that he will make Charlton a success, that even if he sells players he'll invest that money back into the team like he did at SL - but he sold two players in January and replaced them with, er, well, quite. So I'm cautious. Not highly sceptical, but reserving judgement.
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Post by reamsofverse on Apr 22, 2014 18:58:13 GMT
But surely he could have saved £4m and done what he has done with his other clubs in lower leagues where you are not in the spotlight so much.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 19:22:48 GMT
But surely he could have saved £4m and done what he has done with his other clubs in lower leagues where you are not in the spotlight so much. How could he have saved £4M?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 20:18:46 GMT
How much did he buy STTV for?
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Post by reamsofverse on Apr 22, 2014 21:07:54 GMT
But surely he could have saved £4m and done what he has done with his other clubs in lower leagues where you are not in the spotlight so much. How could he have saved £4M? By staying up he will have to pay KC and TJ an extra £4m on top of the £14m that he initially paid for the club.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 21:21:42 GMT
How could he have saved £4M? By staying up he will have to pay KC and TJ an extra £4m on top of the £14m that he initially paid for the club. Yes but it would ultimately probably cost more than that to go down. Lost revenues, smaller gates, lower sponsorships, less tv money, more money needed to get is back up, plus lower club value. He's probably better off paying the 4 mil extra and keeping us up.
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Post by wellingaddick on Apr 22, 2014 22:10:00 GMT
Reading through this thread and indeed seeing the same concerns raised on the other forum. It does seem to me that a lot of these concerns have originated from what has happened at STVV.
Obviously, once RD purchased Standard, they were going to take priority in respect of his football interests in Belgium. But Charlton surely is a different matter. The potential of our club (which I believe is that of a stable Premiership club) could be far more rewarding than Standard, fleeting European Champions League appearances notwithstanding.
The only fear I would have, is if RD started showing an interest in buying an existing Premiership club, thus either selling Charlton or turning us into the English equivalent of STVV. However, I don't think he is that rich and given his stated support for the Financial Fair Play rules, he will be put off very quickly, by the wages being paid in the top division.
I'm confident the club is in safe hands, so far the only misjudgement we have seen from RD has been the overall quality of the loans, something I hope will be addressed properly during the summer.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 23:07:03 GMT
I don't think he's helping himself by going through PR rather than properly engaging with the fans. If the fears are unfounded it really wouldn't be that difficult to allay them by being open with us about his plans.
He was asked a direct question on the BBC about our standing v SL and he fudged his answer, even when pressed about a Premier League Charlton. I'm not convinced it's all about making money out of us - if it was I'd have expected more attention to genuinely improving the squad in January. I wonder if it's more about the challenge of running successful football teams on a break even budget.
That said it does look as if he had no idea how big a club we are. Maybe - with Riga's management confirming Powell's view of Dudan's signings - there will be a change from the initial plan. Either way I do wish he'd share his intentions.
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Post by bartramsboot on Apr 23, 2014 3:33:33 GMT
Rik, as a non footballing type person, I can observe from a less passionate station. It has always seemed to me that RD was, and still is playing it by ear as like yourself I think he had no idea about what he'd taken on. My hope for Charlton fans is that this oppotunity excites him enough to sell off his other footy assets and go for broke.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 6:25:15 GMT
I am perfectly happy with the way that RD and Katrien have gone about things off the pitch up to now. They have been open and honest in their communications and have addressed issues like season ticket prices and the state of the pitch. They took the sensible decision to remove Powell and have replaced him with a bloke who has done well. My criticism of RD would be around three mistakes he has made, two of which can still be rectified;
1. The ludicrous decision to retain the services of Mr Yesterday Richard Murray, a creature who hangs around Charlton like the ravens do at the Tower of London. Get rid this summer. 2. The very poor signings, 7 including Tudgay,in January. 3. Allowing Alnwick, Stephens and Yann to leave and replacing them with players palpably inferior in quality.
We can all properly judge RD after this summer when the pitch is relaid, the Academy is developed, and Poyet gets a new long term contract.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 8:43:06 GMT
I am perfectly happy with the way that RD and Katrien have gone about things off the pitch up to now. They have been open and honest in their communications and have addressed issues like season ticket prices and the state of the pitch. They took the sensible decision to remove Powell and have replaced him with a bloke who has done well. My criticism of RD would be around three mistakes he has made, two of which can still be rectified; 1. The ludicrous decision to retain the services of Mr Yesterday Richard Murray, a creature who hangs around Charlton like the ravens do at the Tower of London. Get rid this summer. 2. The very poor signings, 7 including Tudgay,in January. 3. Allowing Alnwick, Stephens and Yann to leave and replacing them with players palpably inferior in quality. We can all properly judge RD after this summer when the pitch is relaid, the Academy is developed, and Poyet gets a new long term contract. Out of interest, how do you know they've been honest? Not saying they haven't been, but what makes you so confident?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 8:57:41 GMT
@ Rik
I was referring to RD's methods of communication, rather than their content. The press conference followed by the You Tube interview were both reassuring, and whether you like RD & his plans or not, he came across as open. Katrien was in Floyd Road before the Bolton game giving out free programmes & openly chatting with many fans. I have also seen her a couple of times away, doing the same. It is a great improvement on what we had from Slater, Jiminez and Cash, and before that Tricky Dicky and his faithful sidekick Waggott.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 9:01:25 GMT
P.S:
The whole subject of recent Charlton owners and their "honest" communications is an interesting one. I recall a recent owner who promised a "strategic review" after a double relegation- and never reported back. And an owner who promised that a caretaker manager would be "judged solely on results" - only to give him the job after he fired 8 blanks. Not to mention the recent owner who raised capital by selling small shareholdings to fans - and then reduced their value to nil overnight without an apology.
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Post by americanaddick on Apr 23, 2014 9:01:58 GMT
The level of communication from the current board alone makes them better than Slater and friends.
Almost daily youtube video updates for people who don't subscribe to the player.
Katrien regularly interacting with fans
Regular statements from the board (regardless of content)
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Post by wellingaddick on Apr 23, 2014 9:28:32 GMT
I am perfectly happy with the way that RD and Katrien have gone about things off the pitch up to now. They have been open and honest in their communications and have addressed issues like season ticket prices and the state of the pitch. They took the sensible decision to remove Powell and have replaced him with a bloke who has done well. My criticism of RD would be around three mistakes he has made, two of which can still be rectified; 1. The ludicrous decision to retain the services of Mr Yesterday Richard Murray, a creature who hangs around Charlton like the ravens do at the Tower of London. Get rid this summer. 2. The very poor signings, 7 including Tudgay,in January. 3. Allowing Alnwick, Stephens and Yann to leave and replacing them with players palpably inferior in quality. We can all properly judge RD after this summer when the pitch is relaid, the Academy is developed, and Poyet gets a new long term contract. Royston, it is time to put number 3 to bed.
Alnwick clearly had problems that must have been known to CAFC. Stephens was going to walk in the summer regardless, so RD cashed in what he could. Yann is 32 and was chasing a final big pay day, which RD was not prepared to do. I liked Yann as a player, but he was not a prolific goalscorer even in league one.
A final thought. With these players in the side, at the time they left, we were bottom 3. Were they really going to be our saviours this season?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 9:36:46 GMT
@ welling
Was Alnwick better than Thuram (& Hamer) ? - Yes
Was Stephens better than A.A or Petrucci ? - Yes
Was Yann better than Polish Pete or Reza or Tudgay ? - Yes
You can look into the individual merits of each individual transfer, but you can't deny that their overall impact left an already weak squad even weaker.
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Post by reamsofverse on Apr 23, 2014 9:50:14 GMT
Reading through this thread and indeed seeing the same concerns raised on the other forum. It does seem to me that a lot of these concerns have originated from what has happened at STVV. Obviously, once RD purchased Standard, they were going to take priority in respect of his football interests in Belgium. But Charlton surely is a different matter. The potential of our club (which I believe is that of a stable Premiership club) could be far more rewarding than Standard, fleeting European Champions League appearances notwithstanding. The only fear I would have, is if RD started showing an interest in buying an existing Premiership club, thus either selling Charlton or turning us into the English equivalent of STVV. However, I don't think he is that rich and given his stated support for the Financial Fair Play rules, he will be put off very quickly, by the wages being paid in the top division. I'm confident the club is in safe hands, so far the only misjudgement we have seen from RD has been the overall quality of the loans, something I hope will be addressed properly during the summer. But what happened at STVV happened for a reason which is Duchâtelet had to quit all his functions at Sint-Truiden, as under the rules set out by UEFA and the Belgian FA, one person cannot be in control of two different clubs taking part in the same competition. For example if Saint Truiden would have got promoted this season he would then have had a major problem because he cannot have his two Belgian clubs playing in the same league. STVV fans were up in arms when he took over for one main reason, his involvement meant that unless Standard Liege got relegated, Saint Truiden could not get promoted!!! How would you feel as a fan knowing that your club are the second best supported in the Belgian second division after Antwerp but as a club there was nowhere for you to go no matter what success you gained on the pitch. www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/sports/1.1051089As a side issue the league they play in is very exciting at the moment, STVV will finish third but with one game to go the top two meet on Sunday with the winner getting promoted!! uk.soccerway.com/national/belgium/second-division/20132014/regular-season/r21592/
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 9:57:52 GMT
Reading through this thread and indeed seeing the same concerns raised on the other forum. It does seem to me that a lot of these concerns have originated from what has happened at STVV. Obviously, once RD purchased Standard, they were going to take priority in respect of his football interests in Belgium. But Charlton surely is a different matter. The potential of our club (which I believe is that of a stable Premiership club) could be far more rewarding than Standard, fleeting European Champions League appearances notwithstanding. The only fear I would have, is if RD started showing an interest in buying an existing Premiership club, thus either selling Charlton or turning us into the English equivalent of STVV. However, I don't think he is that rich and given his stated support for the Financial Fair Play rules, he will be put off very quickly, by the wages being paid in the top division. I'm confident the club is in safe hands, so far the only misjudgement we have seen from RD has been the overall quality of the loans, something I hope will be addressed properly during the summer. But what happened at STVV happened for a reason which is Duchâtelet had to quit all his functions at Sint-Truiden, as under the rules set out by UEFA and the Belgian FA, one person cannot be in control of two different clubs taking part in the same competition. For example if Saint Truiden would have got promoted this season he would then have had a major problem because he cannot have his two Belgian clubs playing in the same league. STVV fans were up in arms when he took over for one main reason, his involvement meant that unless Standard Liege got relegated, Saint Truiden could not get promoted!!! How would you feel as a fan knowing that your club are the second best supported in the Belgian second division after Antwerp but as a club there was nowhere for you to go no matter what success you gained on the pitch. www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/sports/1.1051089As a side issue the league they play in is very exciting at the moment, STVV will finish third but with one game to go the top two meet on Sunday with the winner getting promoted!! uk.soccerway.com/national/belgium/second-division/20132014/regular-season/r21592/The STVV fan posting on CL said that fans welcomed RD's arrival at the time but it went sour over the longer term as he outworked his strategy with them. I'm sounding like a broken record a bit here, but I think the idea he's not in control of STVV is fanciful. His girlfriend owns it and his close friend is president, the operations work in the same way as if he was the owner. It's within the letter but perhaps not in the spirit of the rules. Of course my concern is CAFC, so hopefully he'll have a different tack with us.
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Post by wellingaddick on Apr 23, 2014 10:01:43 GMT
Royston, I'm not disagreeing with your assessment of the players that came in. As I said before, this was the one mistake the new owners made, misjudging the competitiveness and quality of the Championship.
As to your Questions:-
1, IMO Hamer and Alnwick were pretty much of equal standing. If Alnwick was that good, why was he not an established goalkeeper somewhere in the Championship when we picked him up, why was he let go to a league one team?
2, Stephens departure opened the door to Diego Poyet.
3, No argument for the present, but for how much longer can Yann carry on for at Championship level. Would the club really have got value for money over the full duration of the contract he wanted.
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Post by wellingaddick on Apr 23, 2014 10:26:25 GMT
Reading through this thread and indeed seeing the same concerns raised on the other forum. It does seem to me that a lot of these concerns have originated from what has happened at STVV. Obviously, once RD purchased Standard, they were going to take priority in respect of his football interests in Belgium. But Charlton surely is a different matter. The potential of our club (which I believe is that of a stable Premiership club) could be far more rewarding than Standard, fleeting European Champions League appearances notwithstanding. The only fear I would have, is if RD started showing an interest in buying an existing Premiership club, thus either selling Charlton or turning us into the English equivalent of STVV. However, I don't think he is that rich and given his stated support for the Financial Fair Play rules, he will be put off very quickly, by the wages being paid in the top division. I'm confident the club is in safe hands, so far the only misjudgement we have seen from RD has been the overall quality of the loans, something I hope will be addressed properly during the summer. But what happened at STVV happened for a reason which is Duchâtelet had to quit all his functions at Sint-Truiden, as under the rules set out by UEFA and the Belgian FA, one person cannot be in control of two different clubs taking part in the same competition. For example if Saint Truiden would have got promoted this season he would then have had a major problem because he cannot have his two Belgian clubs playing in the same league. STVV fans were up in arms when he took over for one main reason, his involvement meant that unless Standard Liege got relegated, Saint Truiden could not get promoted!!! How would you feel as a fan knowing that your club are the second best supported in the Belgian second division after Antwerp but as a club there was nowhere for you to go no matter what success you gained on the pitch. www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/sports/1.1051089As a side issue the league they play in is very exciting at the moment, STVV will finish third but with one game to go the top two meet on Sunday with the winner getting promoted!! uk.soccerway.com/national/belgium/second-division/20132014/regular-season/r21592/I understand that Reams, which is why the third paragraph of my post, is what it is. I fear not, as long as Charlton remains his sole footballing interest in England.
RD is foremost a businessman. Once the opportunity came along to buy one of Belgium's biggest clubs, he was going to take it (the nature of the beast). But you can't undo the past and the ownership of STVV came from that past, causing the conflict of interest.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 11:00:36 GMT
@ Rik I was referring to RD's methods of communication, rather than their content. The press conference followed by the You Tube interview were both reassuring, and whether you like RD & his plans or not, he came across as open. Katrien was in Floyd Road before the Bolton game giving out free programmes & openly chatting with many fans. I have also seen her a couple of times away, doing the same. It is a great improvement on what we had from Slater, Jiminez and Cash, and before that Tricky Dicky and his faithful sidekick Waggott. Another view might be that he's got an active PR working for him. I'm open minded personally and I agree that Katrien Miere is engaging with fans - but it's outcomes rather than platitudes that will be most persuasive, and as you say weakening a squad in a perilous position is reckless if you have intentions to improve the club longer term. I agree with the sentiment though, although I don't think better PR would have helped the last lot. The one thing I don't agree with is that Richard Murray wasn't great at communication. I think that is his major strength, although perhaps the politics of the recent ownerships have exposed him a little, and perhaps the reason why RD still wants him around.
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