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Post by fatscholes on Mar 4, 2015 9:59:29 GMT
West Stand gave him a good reception when he walked down to the dugout. He always has done. I think that there is a point that many people don't know, from personal experience just what he did. I remember being at Old Trafford when Mark Stuart scored the winner in the first season up in 86/87 ( I think ). We beat Man Utd at their ground and we didn't have either any money nor any ground of our own!
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Post by ashaddick on Mar 4, 2015 19:03:08 GMT
I sit in the west stand, I stood and applauded Chris Powell ( but not the 3 minute one, thought that all a little OTT ) and I stood and applauded Lennie Lawerence, of whom I have very fond memories. As an aside to this though we should remember as win rates go CP's is quite a bit better than LL's, but it was different times under different circumstances so can they or should they be compared ? I will just happily applaud any player or manager walking past for whom I have respect and save my loudest for the occasions Kieth Peacock wanders by.
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Post by reamsofverse on Mar 4, 2015 20:36:17 GMT
Lennie and my Dad had to work though amid all of the uncertainty and the move away from The Valley.
Powell doesn't even get close to Lennie ash.
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Post by jonkool on Mar 4, 2015 21:29:17 GMT
I sit in the west stand, I stood and applauded Chris Powell ( but not the 3 minute one, thought that all a little OTT ) and I stood and applauded Lennie Lawerence, of whom I have very fond memories. As an aside to this though we should remember as win rates go CP's is quite a bit better than LL's, but it was different times under different circumstances so can they or should they be compared ? I will just happily applaud any player or manager walking past for whom I have respect and save my loudest for the occasions Kieth Peacock wanders by. But Lennie managed for a number of seasons in tier 1 whereas Chris managed in tier 2 and tier 3 with a good budget in tier 3. Lennie had a diddly squad budget!!
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Post by ashaddick on Mar 4, 2015 22:50:24 GMT
I sit in the west stand, I stood and applauded Chris Powell ( but not the 3 minute one, thought that all a little OTT ) and I stood and applauded Lennie Lawerence, of whom I have very fond memories. As an aside to this though we should remember as win rates go CP's is quite a bit better than LL's, but it was different times under different circumstances so can they or should they be compared ? I will just happily applaud any player or manager walking past for whom I have respect and save my loudest for the occasions Kieth Peacock wanders by. But Lennie managed for a number of seasons in tier 1 whereas Chris managed in tier 2 and tier 3 with a good budget in tier 3. Lennie had a diddly squad budget!! I agree, which is why I said " different times and different circumstances " and I also understand Reams emotive memory of Lennie, I was merely pointing out a fact. It was a difficult time when Lennie was in charge of the club and he did a magnificent job for us, I was disappointed when he left for Boro. I seem to remember he had a reasonable time there but never really set the world on fire and ended up drifting down the leagues with the club's he managed, maybe that's what will happen to Powell too ?
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pn87
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Post by pn87 on Mar 5, 2015 4:39:58 GMT
Which ever way you look at it, we wouldnt be here 2day without either of them, they both gave their best to the club now drop the pros and cons!
How can you compare to men who gave their all and love to the club by divisions, era's and budgets! Its ridiculous! Did Powell fuck someones wife am i missing something? Why the hate for the guy who wore the famous red and white shirt and loved it! God forbid Scott Parker ever tries to manage us! Leave Powell alone hes gone! Compare yourself to Chris Powell and see how that one pans out! Jheeeze
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 7:15:26 GMT
But Lennie managed for a number of seasons in tier 1 whereas Chris managed in tier 2 and tier 3 with a good budget in tier 3. Lennie had a diddly squad budget!! I agree, which is why I said " different times and different circumstances " and I also understand Reams emotive memory of Lennie, I was merely pointing out a fact. It was a difficult time when Lennie was in charge of the club and he did a magnificent job for us, I was disappointed when he left for Boro. I seem to remember he had a reasonable time there but never really set the world on fire and ended up drifting down the leagues with the club's he managed, maybe that's what will happen to Powell too ? Lennie got Middlesbrough promoted to the old first division.
At Cardiff he took on the role of having many hats and being heavily involved behind the scenes like he was with us.
Within the game I think he is very well respected.
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Post by jonkool on Mar 5, 2015 8:58:56 GMT
But Lennie managed for a number of seasons in tier 1 whereas Chris managed in tier 2 and tier 3 with a good budget in tier 3. Lennie had a diddly squad budget!! I agree, which is why I said " different times and different circumstances " and I also understand Reams emotive memory of Lennie, I was merely pointing out a fact. It was a difficult time when Lennie was in charge of the club and he did a magnificent job for us, I was disappointed when he left for Boro. I seem to remember he had a reasonable time there but never really set the world on fire and ended up drifting down the leagues with the club's he managed, maybe that's what will happen to Powell too ? Getting into and then retaining tier1 status on a tiny budget was a miracle and in terms of context puts Lennie right up there with Jimmy S and Curbs particularly if it is considered a handicap race where the other two greats would have to concede a lot of pounds in weight to Lennie. CP will need to evolve in order to progress and create a more progressive style of play so as to entertain the paying punters. The big question is whether he is able???
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 9:00:12 GMT
Which ever way you look at it, we wouldnt be here 2day without either of them, they both gave their best to the club now drop the pros and cons! How can you compare to men who gave their all and love to the club by divisions, era's and budgets! Its ridiculous! Did Powell fuck someones wife am i missing something? Why the hate for the guy who wore the famous red and white shirt and loved it! God forbid Scott Parker ever tries to manage us! Leave Powell alone hes gone! Compare yourself to Chris Powell and see how that one pans out! Jheeeze I've compared myself to Powell and can honestly say I came out on top...and I'm useless at everything
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 12:46:43 GMT
Which ever way you look at it, we wouldnt be here 2day without either of them, they both gave their best to the club now drop the pros and cons! How can you compare to men who gave their all and love to the club by divisions, era's and budgets! Its ridiculous! Did Powell fuck someones wife am i missing something? Why the hate for the guy who wore the famous red and white shirt and loved it! God forbid Scott Parker ever tries to manage us! Leave Powell alone hes gone! Compare yourself to Chris Powell and see how that one pans out! Jheeeze I've compared myself to Powell and can honestly say I came out on top...and I'm useless at everything Wow!
How many England caps have you got then?
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Post by ashaddick on Mar 5, 2015 13:55:46 GMT
This is all getting rather silly again and I don't want to be part of it really but will leave you with these thoughts. I sit in the west stand and against Huddersfield I stood and applauded Powell, two of my kids were in the covered end, they did the same, my other children were sitting up behind me, they too stood and applauded and I had friends in the away end ( the only place they could get tickets ) and they also stood and applauded. On Tuesday when Lawrence walked down the pitch I again stood and applauded, as did the old boys around me because we remember him and what he and indeed Eddie May did for our club in those dark years, but many other younger supporters or those who joined us in the Curbishly's years don't remember him at all, many of them see Powell not only as a great player during that time but as the first stability we had after Curbishly's leaving and hence the affection. It is a pointless excercise to compare the two other than to say I believe both men strived to do their best under different constraints, both had levels of success and failure and I as an old git remember them ( and Eddie May ) fondly. As a quick aside to this my long dead old dad used to live in the Kings Road just before the last world war, when I asked him if he ever walked down to Stamford Bridge in those days he answered " Son, Chelsea were considered almost a music hall act in those days, why would I watch them ?" But now I, born in the 50,s don't remember Chelsea like that at all, I just remember the side in the old second division that we had some good games against. Different age, different memory ! That's all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 16:08:47 GMT
I've compared myself to Powell and can honestly say I came out on top...and I'm useless at everything Wow!
How many England caps have you got then?
I don't have any England caps, but I am perfect in every other way. I hope you can live comfortably with that my hippie friend. Peace and love xxxxx
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 19:08:42 GMT
I was really expecting a reposte from mister angry...oh well
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Post by reamsofverse on Mar 5, 2015 19:31:06 GMT
So he is a Charlton 'Legend' because he played for England?
Powell has had much criticism as a manager and rightly so. Nobody questions his ability as a player and nobody ever should, but giving him some leeway because of that doesn't wash with me I'm sorry.
Premiership Footballer no doubt but a L1 manager at best....let's leave it at that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 0:18:47 GMT
So he is a Charlton 'Legend' because he played for England? Powell has had much criticism as a manager and rightly so. Nobody questions his ability as a player and nobody ever should, but giving him some leeway because of that doesn't wash with me I'm sorry. Premiership Footballer no doubt but a L1 manager at best....let's leave it at that. First charlton player to play for England in what, 30-40 years? Pretty decent in my lifetime. You can't rewrite history. Try as you might.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 0:23:33 GMT
Wow!
How many England caps have you got then?
I don't have any England caps, but I am perfect in every other way. I hope you can live comfortably with that my hippie friend. Peace and love xxxxx Ah, no worries there. My own personal view is that he may have the edge, slightly, but I fully accept it's all a matter of opinion and conjecture .
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Post by seriouslyred on Mar 6, 2015 18:10:09 GMT
I was there at all three play off games vs Leeds and I'd say around half of our current fanbase were following us then.
Lennie was a complete star and had all kinds of challenges when there was no money at Charlton and no real money in football.
I have to say I didn't like seeing him in a Palace tie a couple of years back but he certainly did his bit for CAFC - he is one of three managers in our history to get us to the top tier and keep us there. I hope Luzon (or even Riga!) joins that list one day.
Without that stint with Lennie there is no way we would have attracted the likes of Murray and others to get us back to the Valley and onto the play-offs.
Powell has allowed himself to be hijacked and used as an icon in a campaign against the current owner - there is no comparison.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 3:16:33 GMT
Just out of interest SR, who exactly is conducting a campaign against the current owner?
I mean 3 publications carried an interview with Powell. The SLP, the Standard and the Supporters' Trust. None of those are involved in a campaign against the owner, so what am I missing?
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Post by pn87 on Mar 7, 2015 4:32:14 GMT
So he is a Charlton 'Legend' because he played for England? Powell has had much criticism as a manager and rightly so. Nobody questions his ability as a player and nobody ever should, but giving him some leeway because of that doesn't wash with me I'm sorry. Premiership Footballer no doubt but a L1 manager at best....let's leave it at that. The guys a Charlton Legend... explain to me why hes not? His mistake was managing a club that he loved, that he spent most of his playing career at. What a scumbag ey! He only played over 200 games for us but hes not a charlton legend because thats far to much leeway! an unsuccessful manager who used to be a great player has all his status forgotten about all because he had a poor season as manager, so certain fans never forgive him dismiss him as a nobody and then have a pop at the fans that appreciate his efforts. Chrissy Powell just aint a Charlton legend... why? Cos it dont wash with Reams!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 10:23:58 GMT
Just out of interest SR, who exactly is conducting a campaign against the current owner? I mean 3 publications carried an interview with Powell. The SLP, the Standard and the Supporters' Trust. None of those are involved in a campaign against the owner, so what am I missing? Every time I read one of your posts lately I end up with smoke in my eyes Rik. Stop trying to create smokescreens and answer Le Point - since the CAST public meeting which got CAST a nice £1,000 plus, how exactly have you taken matters forward? #smokescreensgalore
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 11:23:13 GMT
Nicely put SR.
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Post by seriouslyred on Mar 7, 2015 11:36:28 GMT
Just out of interest SR, who exactly is conducting a campaign against the current owner? I mean 3 publications carried an interview with Powell. The SLP, the Standard and the Supporters' Trust. None of those are involved in a campaign against the owner, so what am I missing? Have you read CL this last year? Same people keep bringing up Koc, Nego and "inadequate player recruitment". Ben Hayes just joined the throng in an attempt to state his populist credentials. Shame he's a little late and we've won four of our last five with a team which has been put together with academy players, network loans and open market signings. Is the Trust running a campaign against Duchatelet? Not on its website but several board members keep posting and posting and posting on CL. I've just deleted a long winded rambling set of comments which can be summed up in one question. Do you think today's team is better than the one which played Sheffield Utd and therefore do you recognise that Duchatelet had to change the coach and fund player acquisition to improve our competitiveness? It's a yes/no so no smoke and mirrors allowed
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 10:51:49 GMT
Do I believe the manager had to be changed to improve the squad?? Of course not.
Is the team now better than it was at Sheffield United? Yes of course. The team before the takeover had Kermorgant in it though, something we only addressed a year later.
My involvement with Charlton Athletic has always done beyond the result on a Saturday. It means I'm able to reserve judgement when you were rushing to tell us Peeters was a resounding success.
If you really believe that we've reached a decent run of 6 games as a result of arch strategy then there's little point engaging in this debate. We had a decent run at the back of last season and according to you Peeters was always RD's choice - great strategy.
Luzon is an expedient rather than strategic appointment, but the signs are good and maybe we've lucked in. Despite an inauspicious CV he looks well matched to the needs of the Championship. But right now Bulon,Buyens,Johnson,Eagles - all regular starters - will leave at the end of the year. I'm still reserving my judgement as to whether RD is a good thing. And you yourself spoke in criticism at the meeting, and signed up to the consensus, which you seen now to be abandoning.
Nick, I'm not really going to accept the criticism of a bunch of volunteers, all who have family and work commitments, that we're not moving quickly enough for you. A statement will be out in the next day or two explaining what we've already been doing. In the meantime keep posting to your various forums using your various screen names to build a false perception of ground swell.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 11:00:31 GMT
Just out of interest SR, who exactly is conducting a campaign against the current owner? I mean 3 publications carried an interview with Powell. The SLP, the Standard and the Supporters' Trust. None of those are involved in a campaign against the owner, so what am I missing? Every time I read one of your posts lately I end up with smoke in my eyes Rik. Stop trying to create smokescreens and answer Le Point - since the CAST public meeting which got CAST a nice £1,000 plus, how exactly have you taken matters forward? #smokescreensgalore Nick, please link me to that tweet from CAST that says we put on 200 members. Our of interest, how much do you think that meeting cost the Trust and individuals within it?
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Post by seriouslyred on Mar 8, 2015 14:39:22 GMT
Do I believe the manager had to be changed to improve the squad?? Of course not. Is the team now better than it was at Sheffield United? Yes of course. The team before the takeover had Kermorgant in it though, something we only addressed a year later. My involvement with Charlton Athletic has always done beyond the result on a Saturday. It means I'm able to reserve judgement when you were rushing to tell us Peeters was a resounding success. If you really believe that we've reached a decent run of 6 games as a result of arch strategy then there's little point engaging in this debate. We had a decent run at the back of last season and according to you Peeters was always RD's choice - great strategy. Luzon is an expedient rather than strategic appointment, but the signs are good and maybe we've lucked in. Despite an inauspicious CV he looks well matched to the needs of the Championship. But right now Bulon,Buyens,Johnson,Eagles - all regular starters - will leave at the end of the year. I'm still reserving my judgement as to whether RD is a good thing. And you yourself spoke in criticism at the meeting, and signed up to the consensus, which you seen now to be abandoning. Nick, I'm not really going to accept the criticism of a bunch of volunteers, all who have family and work commitments, that we're not moving quickly enough for you. A statement will be out in the next day or two explaining what we've already been doing. In the meantime keep posting to your various forums using your various screen names to build a false perception of ground swell. The squad today is better than the one with Kermorgant and Stephens in it? Yes or no? Powell put something in black and white in the interview with Weegie published by the Trust. Something which some of us figured out a while back. Basically Powell wanted to extend the entire league 1 title winning squad. That squad got us out of League 1 for sure and the defence was sound enough but the front six were not competitive at all. Today we now know what a competitive front six looks like. So Powell wanted to keep them all which means no budget for new players and replacements. And that we rely solely upon the academy for new bloof. Fortunately as part of Slater and Jiminez strategy for selling the club as a blank canvas there would be no contractual commitment to the squad except the academy players who were all signed on long term deals. [except Poyet] I know it's harsh but Duchatelet has come in and within 14 months has installed a new squad as well as coaches who could win more than one game a month! When Peeters stopped winning he too got the boot. As we are agreed that the team and squad is better, can you now accept that Duchatelet did not wish to work with the guy who built the last squad and who wanted to renew them? If you still maintain that RD could and should have worked with Powell then you're missing the point! That 2012-14 squad was bottom six quality...we needed to move on.
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Post by squareball on Mar 8, 2015 19:24:10 GMT
It appears more and more to me that Powells sacking and Kermorgants sale are what holds back a lot of our supporters. Kermorgant is all we can hold aloft from the old squad ? He was average at best, flick it on to no one, wave the arms about, occasional good goal . Never rated him and was glad when he was moved on. It is very strange indeed this division between fans.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 19:55:54 GMT
The problem with this yes and no question is that you are attributing your own qualification to it whilst removing my opportunity to put my answer in context. That's not a debate, it's manipulative.
On a number of posts you seem to get under the impression mine and the Trust's position is Roland Out. That just isn't the case. We can see there is a mix of good and bad, both on the pitch and off.
We feel that many of the mistakes that have been made are because the supporter isn't considered, let alone involved in the decision making process. Katrien admitted this herself - the fans just have to accept it. I don't agree we just have to accept it, and neither do you if your speech is anything to go by.
So we can argue squads all we like. I've answered your question, but I will say this: like the pitch, the squad Powell and Riga had wasn't for for purpose. It would have been negligent to leave it in place.
Even so, just a few weeks ago - until it appears Katrien finally got through to RD - the threat of relegation loomed over the club. It prompted the change of a manager you told us was RD's strategic choice.
You also told us to judge RD on his summer transfer dealings. Well they led us to the precipice - now, with 3 British players finally brought into the fold the future looks considerably brighter - at least until the loanees go back.
And to be accurate, the debt for the new signings remains with the club does it not? So if his - let's be generous - inconsistent success in the transfer market falls on the negative side - such as the best part of a million for Polish Pete - we still have to pay for it.
Id rather know the club was a bit better informed than two guys in Belgium on their laptops. Wouldn't you? (Yes or no) ;-)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 20:00:04 GMT
It appears more and more to me that Powells sacking and Kermorgants sale are what holds back a lot of our supporters. Kermorgant is all we can hold aloft from the old squad ? He was average at best, flick it on to no one, wave the arms about, occasional good goal . Never rated him and was glad when he was moved on. It is very strange indeed this division between fans. Losing Kermorgant had a big impact on the players too, Squareball. He left a gap in the squad that Watt is showing needed filling. He's done very well at Bournemouth wouldn't you say? Eddie Howe certainly did last week.
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Post by squareball on Mar 8, 2015 21:48:47 GMT
It appears more and more to me that Powells sacking and Kermorgants sale are what holds back a lot of our supporters. Kermorgant is all we can hold aloft from the old squad ? He was average at best, flick it on to no one, wave the arms about, occasional good goal . Never rated him and was glad when he was moved on. It is very strange indeed this division between fans. Losing Kermorgant had a big impact on the players too, Squareball. He left a gap in the squad that Watt is showing needed filling. He's done very well at Bournemouth wouldn't you say? Eddie Howe certainly did last week. Haha . I see more clearly its about YK and CP . Kermo was hardly prolific for us and drew a long ball game plan from CP . Howe is not that kind of manager and may get more from him than Powell did. I would imagine that Kermo demanding more money or he is off would certainly have had a big impact on the squad. On that I concur. For me Watt is a far better player than YK . So as we have Watt why should be care about losing a weaker player? Before Watt came Igor had more than filled Kermos boots anyway. We are doubly better off.
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Post by seriouslyred on Mar 9, 2015 0:51:54 GMT
I'm trying to avoid mindless detail, selective distortion and conflation. That's why I boil it down to one question:
Is the squad better than when Staprix took over in January 2014?
The questions about Duchatelet's methods are of course relevant: 1) could he have improved our squad with Powell at the helm? He chose not to and I have tried to explain my observations around that based on the paucity of the 2012-14 squad. 2) given the turnover of coaches at Liege and CAFC I tend to agree we should have a visible and competent team designing and executing player development and acquisition strategy 3) how much as Staprix pumped in on top of buying out Cafc (BVI) loans? Looks like £5m losses, £4.3m player acquisition and £3m paying off other club debts. This make a total £30m in the books - M.Duchatelet is not pissing about here! Especially given it might take another £10-15m to get to 6th place next season if we're lucky! 4) Accounting for players? Let's look at all player acquisitions in a balanced way and not just focus on Koc, Nego or Parsyshek. The accounts for last season show we made £4.3m of player acquisitions all funded by Staprix loans. This included Vetokele (estimated at £2.5m). The club declared £890k of loan and transfer deal income after 30th June which can only relate to Reza, Piotr Koc and Nego going - that looks an ok return on £1.8m given we still hold the registration for some of these players. Bottom line is that our squad is worth considerably more than it was 14 months ago - it's younger, better and on longer term deals in the main.
Remember Dowie and Pardew buying all those players and securing near bankruptcy plus two relegations in three years?
So let's celebrate an improving squad rather than castigate the new owner for not delivering perfection.
Let's avoid the noise and mindless detail and let's see whether the squad takes another step up this summer.
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