Hurting teams on the counter attack

[reamsofverse]

What jumped out at me last night is how much more of a cohesive unit we looked defensively and I don't just mean the back five.

We sat deep as a team soaking up all Derby could throw at us and hit them on the break. I felt we were able to do this as our players were closer together and made the pitch smaller when under pressure. The strikers weren't isolated and we defended and countered as a unit.

Our defenders were immense but I honestly feel that it's because they didn't have much time on the ball and cleared their lines everytime Derby came at us. There was no time to play it around at the back which often lands us in trouble. We kept it simple, threw bodies in the way and won the majority of first and second balls and phases of play.

I feel we are at our best when we soak up pressure and hit teams on the counter. It's so much better on the eye and much more effective than passing it around in our own half before lumping it forward for our strikers to try and run into.

[divot]

It's the only way to go with this group of players (and most groups of players at League One level).

Pep G has influenced so many coaches, who think they can replicate the same sort of patterns as Barcelona and Man City, but it invariably leads them to trouble...EG Ben Garner. Making good teams has always been about defensive stability first and if that means being compact, then so be it. Win your headers, win your tackles, shut down space and with fit, mobile players, the rest will follow.

[thesunisred]

Totally agree that we look very threatening on the counter attack. I wouldn't say that we sat deep though. More that we played with lots of energy and were very organised out of possession. At times we employed a very high press and forced Derby to hurry passes. Jones has transformed the squad in just a few weeks.

[Mundell]

I’m not sure the Jonesian revolution is seeking to build a counter attacking team either. If we are to make comparisons with teams at the very elite level, then what Jones seems to be doing is more Liverpool than Manchester City. Guardiola aims to control games and create order while Klopp creates chaos. Both teams have wonderful players and they are coached to perfection in the desired style of play. Within reason, both styles can work at any level. What’s absolutely essential though is that you’re committed to what you’re doing and drill the players accordingly. The players then adapt, some better than others, so that increasingly strong foundations get laid down. 

I couldn’t really understand why we weren’t doing better with the players we’ve got (sometimes it’s too easy to blame the coach) but I think the problem was we were neither one thing nor the other and we had players who didn’t fit (or weren’t being instructed to fit) the chosen system or style, whatever it was. The paradox with this situation was that sometimes those that seemed to be our best players (Dobson, May and Blackett Taylor) were very much part of the problem and that made the situation even more challenging to address. 

What Jones has done is started from scratch and he’s brought clarity and intensity. We’re going to play on the front foot, aggressive football in which we “win our battles” as Jones puts it. In time we’ll see where that leads. We won’t be playing possession football (playing additional passes to enable us to get into our shape), but that doesn’t mean we won’t play out from the back when it makes sense to do so. If teams back off us that will give Hector and Gillesphey time to play. 

The key in midfield will be to combine an aggressive press (led from the front two) with quality in possession and quick movement rather than “steady control”. We’re already looking much better defensively because we’re denying our opponents space, getting in their faces, disrupting their rhythm and making it hard for them to get at our back four, but until the second half last night we’d lacked any coherence and quality in possession. Something clicked at half time though and Anderson and Coventry were key to that. 

I’m in optimistic mode this morning and perhaps I’m being unrealistic, but I think it’s possible that the end point of the Jonesian revolution we’ll find we won’t be a side that “looks after the ball” or one that seeks to counter attack, but one instead that aims to simply overwhelm the opposition in all areas of the pitch. I also think that in time the departures of Blackett Taylor, Fraser (likely) and Dobson (pre contract signed) will look well judged. I’m not sure any of them fit what’s now needed. 

Just my perspective as always. I don’t think there are any right answers here. 

[valleyfaithful]

I do agree Mundell but simply put from my perspective, we’ve been trying to play Manchester City style football with Macclesfield level technical ability.

Jones has clearly identified that pretty football doesn’t always work in League One but the consistency in promotion candidates through the years includes a focal #9 (Morrison at Millwall, Collins at Luton, Woodrow at Barnsley, Bishop at Pompey) and an aggressive, physical side behind them.

It’s not quite route one, but it’s also not possession football for the sake of possession. One thing I saw last night is an improvement of speculative balls - Coventry’s through ball for the penalty challenge was the best of them. Playing into the channels for our forwards to chase and pressure keeps the ball away from our back four. Not always the right option but something different when we’re not playing the ball well, like the first half last night.

[jonkool]

Feb 28, 2024 8:49:10 GMT reamsofverse said:

What jumped out at me last night is how much more of a cohesive unit we looked defensively and I don't just mean the back five.

We sat deep as a team soaking up all Derby could throw at us and hit them on the break. I felt we were able to do this as our players were closer together and made the pitch smaller when under pressure. The strikers weren't isolated and we defended and countered as a unit.

Our defenders were immense but I honestly feel that it's because they didn't have much time on the ball and cleared their lines everytime Derby came at us. There was no time to play it around at the back which often lands us in trouble. We kept it simple, threw bodies in the way and won the majority of first and second balls and phases of play.

I feel we are at our best when we soak up pressure and hit teams on the counter. It's so much better on the eye and much more effective than passing it around in our own half before lumping it forward for our strikers to try and run into.

100% … and we looked so more effective playing this way with young Coventry having his best game to date acting as a springboard for our counterattacks. Looked like a very impressive quarter back mixing short 5 yard passes with longer defence splitting through balls.

Opponents may pick up on this but I’m sure NJ will be coaching the squad how to overcome new problems.

[leedsaddick]

Feb 28, 2024 10:11:06 GMT Mundell said:

I’m not sure the Jonesian revolution is seeking to build a counter attacking team either. If we are to make comparisons with teams at the very elite level, then what Jones seems to be doing is more Liverpool than Manchester City. Guardiola aims to control games and create order while Klopp creates chaos. Both teams have wonderful players and they are coached to perfection in the desired style of play. Within reason, both styles can work at any level. What’s absolutely essential though is that you’re committed to what you’re doing and drill the players accordingly. The players then adapt, some better than others, so that increasingly strong foundations get laid down. 

I couldn’t really understand why we weren’t doing better with the players we’ve got (sometimes it’s too easy to blame the coach) but I think the problem was we were neither one thing nor the other and we had players who didn’t fit (or weren’t being instructed to fit) the chosen system or style, whatever it was. The paradox with this situation was that sometimes those that seemed to be our best players (Dobson, May and Blackett Taylor) were very much part of the problem and that made the situation even more challenging to address. 

What Jones has done is started from scratch and he’s brought clarity and intensity. We’re going to play on the front foot, aggressive football in which we “win our battles” as Jones puts it. In time we’ll see where that leads. We won’t be playing possession football (playing additional passes to enable us to get into our shape), but that doesn’t mean we won’t play out from the back when it makes sense to do so. If teams back off us that will give Hector and Gillesphey time to play. 

The key in midfield will be to combine an aggressive press (led from the front two) with quality in possession and quick movement rather than “steady control”. We’re already looking much better defensively because we’re denying our opponents space, getting in their faces, disrupting their rhythm and making it hard for them to get at our back four, but until the second half last night we’d lacked any coherence and quality in possession. Something clicked at half time though and Anderson and Coventry were key to that. 

I’m in optimistic mode this morning and perhaps I’m being unrealistic, but I think it’s possible that the end point of the Jonesian revolution we’ll find we won’t be a side that “looks after the ball” or one that seeks to counter attack, but one instead that aims to simply overwhelm the opposition in all areas of the pitch. I also think that in time the departures of Blackett Taylor, Fraser (likely) and Dobson (pre contract signed) will look well judged. I’m not sure any of them fit what’s now needed. 

Just my perspective as always. I don’t think there are any right answers here. 

A couple of builds from me…. Like you, I thought the players we’ve got are ok…. I remember some of awful players we had in the 70’s, but the frustrating aspect for me has been the formation that’s built on asking the players to play to their weaknesses rather than strengths and have a champagne flowing playing style, when the technical capability is of Prosecco… NJ has has provided focus on what he wants and that’s delivered 5 welcome points….. I think you’re right that we do have players who may not fit the way forward, CBT being one, and perhaps previous managers have tried to accommodate him to the expense of team shape…. I’m feeling optimistic re our next two games, Northampton and Carlise…. If we win those, pressure diminishes and we may see a glimpse of what the team is truly capable off……. I’ll caveat that with the phrase, “ well this is Charlton”

[leedsaddick]

Feb 28, 2024 10:16:32 GMT valleyfaithful said:

I do agree Mundell but simply put from my perspective, we’ve been trying to play Manchester City style football with Macclesfield level technical ability.

Jones has clearly identified that pretty football doesn’t always work in League One but the consistency in promotion candidates through the years includes a focal #9 (Morrison at Millwall, Collins at Luton, Woodrow at Barnsley, Bishop at Pompey) and an aggressive, physical side behind them.

It’s not quite route one, but it’s also not possession football for the sake of possession. One thing I saw last night is an improvement of speculative balls - Coventry’s through ball for the penalty challenge was the best of them. Playing into the channels for our forwards to chase and pressure keeps the ball away from our back four. Not always the right option but something different when we’re not playing the ball well, like the first half last night.

Spot on