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Post by weststandfruitloop on Aug 27, 2023 11:45:50 GMT
I've previously mentioned that I've been boycotting since early in the Duchatelet reign. (The only Charlton men's game I've been to in the last eight years was the play-off final as I couldn't resist Wembley.) I've also said that I won't return to watching games until we have new owners who have run the club properly for at least a year.
I had hoped this new lot might finally turn out to be the ones, but only a month in this looks increasingly unlikely. I do feel sorry for those who excitedly resume their season ticket status every time there's new ownership. These inevitably turn out to be false dawns, essentially just swapping one frying pan for another, which is why I'll be waiting a full year.
If anyone doubts the realities of this new ownership, re-read that two page interview Charlie Methven gave to the Daily Telegraph a week or so ago. Then casts your minds back to the Duchatelet era.
Katrien Meire said we should be delighted to watch the Premier League stars of the future. Playing youngsters and selling them on asap was the inferred policy. What did Methven tell his Daily Telegraph interviewee, as quoted in that piece:
Despite cost-cutting and what many fans perceive as chronic under-investment, the club is still losing too much money. The solution, Methven says, is getting operating losses down to £1-2 million per year and aiming to make a net profit in the medium term on player trading.
“You will do that if you have any kind of competence at all, and particularly if, like Charlton, you’ve got one of the most productive academies in the country,” he says.
Like Roland, this new lot believe that football is easy and almost everyone else is running clubs the wrong way because they're idiots. Note that whilst making a net profit on player trading is a 'medium term' plan (ie in a couple of years time) cutting operating losses to £1-2m comes first, ie it needs to start happening right now.
Operating losses have been £6-8m a season in L1. The new owners want to cut that to £1-2m pretty much immediately. This means cutting our losses by around £5m a year.
How do you do that? Increasing income is one way, hence perhaps the dream of exploiting overseas paid stream sales via ACA or whatever. Even if this works, the majority of the reduction will still have to come from cutting outgoings.
Far and away the biggest outgoing is salaries (£9.5m a year in the last accounts) with first team players' wages the bulk of that. Even if we're just looking to cut that wage bill by say £2m, the only way to do that is by reducing the number of senior players on the books (with as many of those as possible being loanees whose parent clubs are covering a chunk of their wages).
Youth players are on way less wages (£1k a week tops rather than the £5K-ish of senior players). The only way to reduce overall player wages to cut costs, whilst still maintaining a realistic squad size, is to use as many 17-21 year old players as possible in first team games.
This also has the benefit of putting them in the shop window so you can sell them a year or so down the line in pursuit of that medium term aim of enough player sales to turn an overall profit in the annual accounts.
That's what Duchatelet via Meire inferred he wanted to do. That's what SE7 Partners want to do too. Methven didn't just infer it - he flat out told one of Britain's biggest newspapers that this was the express aim in that recent interview.
They don't just want to do it. They are doing it now. The team Holden fielded yesterday wasn't an aberration, it was the new business model in action. We are nowhere near the FFP wage cap. Player salaries (under 20s don't count anyway remember, as well as being comparatively low) aren't at 30% of turnover let alone 60%.
The 'wage limit' being referred to is the owner's salary cap not the EFL's. Cutting losses by £5m a season means largely playing (then later selling) the kids, and Andy Scott replacing Holden as manager in a week or so will be just one more salary removed from the equation.
SE7 Partners are doing exactly what Roland and Katrien intended to before the protests caused them to rethink.
As Curbishley sibling managed Valley gig stars The Who put it: "The world looks just the same/And history ain't changed... Meet the new boss/Same as the old boss."
Won't Get Fooled Again? We already have been.
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Post by squareball on Aug 27, 2023 12:07:25 GMT
We weren’t all fooled. Some were banned for smelling the obvious bs. Many are waking up and smelling the coffee now but I’m still curious how they fell for it, writing long posts of endless possibilities in direct contradiction of what the stated model is. There is no pot of money, that went on purchasing the financially worthless club. I bet banjo man still can’t believe his luck!,
We might still get one or two in but it’s not going to be enough to challenge.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2023 13:15:39 GMT
I've previously mentioned that I've been boycotting since early in the Duchatelet reign. (The only Charlton men's game I've been to in the last eight years was the play-off final as I couldn't resist Wembley.) I've also said that I won't return to watching games until we have new owners who have run the club properly for at least a year. I had hoped this new lot might finally turn out to be the ones, but only a month in this looks increasingly unlikely. I do feel sorry for those who excitedly resume their season ticket status every time there's new ownership. These inevitably turn out to be false dawns, essentially just swapping one frying pan for another, which is why I'll be waiting a full year. If anyone doubts the realities of this new ownership, re-read that two page interview Charlie Methven gave to the Daily Telegraph a week or so ago. Then casts your minds back to the Duchatelet era. Katrien Meire said we should be delighted to watch the Premier League stars of the future. Playing youngsters and selling them on asap was the inferred policy. What did Methven tell his Daily Telegraph interviewee, as quoted in that piece: Despite cost-cutting and what many fans perceive as chronic under-investment, the club is still losing too much money. The solution, Methven says, is getting operating losses down to £1-2 million per year and aiming to make a net profit in the medium term on player trading.
“You will do that if you have any kind of competence at all, and particularly if, like Charlton, you’ve got one of the most productive academies in the country,” he says.
Like Roland, this new lot believe that football is easy and almost everyone else is running clubs the wrong way because they're idiots. Note that whilst making a net profit on player trading is a 'medium term' plan (ie in a couple of years time) cutting operating losses to £1-2m comes first, ie it needs to start happening right now. Operating losses have been £6-8m a season in L1. The new owners want to cut that to £1-2m pretty much immediately. This means cutting our losses by around £5m a year. How do you do that? Increasing income is one way, hence perhaps the dream of exploiting overseas paid stream sales via ACA or whatever. Even if this works, the majority of the reduction will still have to come from cutting outgoings. Far and away the biggest outgoing is salaries (£9.5m a year in the last accounts) with first team players' wages the bulk of that. Even if we're just looking to cut that wage bill by say £2m, the only way to do that is by reducing the number of senior players on the books (with as many of those as possible being loanees whose parent clubs are covering a chunk of their wages). Youth players are on way less wages (£1k a week tops rather than the £5K-ish of senior players). The only way to reduce overall player wages to cut costs, whilst still maintaining a realistic squad size, is to use as many 17-21 year old players as possible in first team games. This also has the benefit of putting them in the shop window so you can sell them a year or so down the line in pursuit of that medium term aim of enough player sales to turn an overall profit in the annual accounts. That's what Duchatelet via Meire inferred he wanted to do. That's what SE7 Partners want to do too. Methven didn't just infer it - he flat out told one of Britain's biggest newspapers that this was the express aim in that recent interview. They don't just want to do it. They are doing it now. The team Holden fielded yesterday wasn't an aberration, it was the new business model in action. We are nowhere near the FFP wage cap. Player salaries (under 20s don't count anyway remember, as well as being comparatively low) aren't at 30% of turnover let alone 60%. The 'wage limit' being referred to is the owner's salary cap not the EFL's. Cutting losses by £5m a season means largely playing (then later selling) the kids, and Andy Scott replacing Holden as manager in a week or so will be just one more salary removed from the equation. SE7 Partners are doing exactly what Roland and Katrien intended to before the protests caused them to rethink. As Curbishley sibling managed Valley gig stars The Who put it: "The world looks just the same/And history ain't changed... Meet the new boss/Same as the old boss." Won't Get Fooled Again? We already have been. Very well said. At least there a few that understand what's going on. |
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Post by seriouslyred on Aug 27, 2023 13:36:44 GMT
Operating losses have been 6-8M in the Championship too. Gates are higher and the media deal is way way higher. But so are Championship wages. Mundell did comment on the article elsewhere, asking me for my views - will fish both posts out and copy paste here. What we should note in the article is that Methven states that promotion to the Championship is key. We won't know until end September whether we are on the right path in terms of results and performances. But we can agree that we are seeing far more Academy player appearances in the first team. Riga did the same under Duchatelet back in March 2014. And it worked. Robinson did same after replacing Slade and changing the formation to 4-2-3-1. That led to a play-off finish within 18 months followed by victory at Wembley a year later. Methven might talk to reducing operating losses to £2M but he hasn't specified where and how. There are certainly commercial opportunities and promotion will expand the revenue as above. So our revenue could easily rise from £10M to 20M over the next two years. Impossible to comment without knowing the plan. But what we do know is that the current investors are committed to two years on agreed budgeted losses. Perhaps we watch the football and await announcements? |
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Post by earlpurple on Aug 27, 2023 14:06:02 GMT
The billionaire owners, Friedmann etc. have no say whatsoever in the running of the club. I wish Methven would either let us know if he's running the club or leaving it to others who know better, because maybe the real experts who know how to run a football club could tell him his model just won't work - in fact there is no real way to make profit in football and that the success of the owners is really pride of what they've achieved for the club and not how much profit they have made. The idea of billionaire owners is they can afford to lose a couple of million a year without it hurting, because that is exactly what is going to happen. Football is "broken" if this is the way it is at the moment pretty much at all levels. But it is. Of course it's not enough to play "attacking" football, you have to be able to defend as well, and it's been our downfall under Garner and Holden is that we don't defend properly. If it means playing a bit ugly to get a winning team that gets lots of 1-0s I'd rather have that then giving 2 goals away almost every game. Of all the recent owners (not including ESI) I see these new ones as having the worst start - Roland came in and immediately we were saved from relegation and finished a safe mid-table the following season. In the summer of 2015 he sold off his other clubs and lost interest in ours too, but the network model actually did work to some extent. Even under Sandgaard our initial window took us from having a very thin squad to a team that went into the top 6 until Inniss got injured and we started leaking goals. Our targets seem to have all been about attacking, or bringing in youth. We need experience in right-back, urgently, and better tracking back by the team when they lose possession.
i don't think Duchatalet wanted to do what the OP has suggested; he wanted to run a network, so they could be moved around more easily. Even when below-standard players were signed early on, it was easy to move them on to a club lower down his "network". As long as that was the case, it worked reasonably well.
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Post by seriouslyred on Aug 27, 2023 15:07:22 GMT
The billionaire owners, Friedmann etc. have no say whatsoever in the running of the club. I wish Methven would either let us know if he's running the club or leaving it to others who know better, because maybe the real experts who know how to run a football club could tell him his model just won't work - in fact there is no real way to make profit in football and that the success of the owners is really pride of what they've achieved for the club and not how much profit they have made. The idea of billionaire owners is they can afford to lose a couple of million a year without it hurting, because that is exactly what is going to happen. Football is "broken" if this is the way it is at the moment pretty much at all levels. But it is. Of course it's not enough to play "attacking" football, you have to be able to defend as well, and it's been our downfall under Garner and Holden is that we don't defend properly. If it means playing a bit ugly to get a winning team that gets lots of 1-0s I'd rather have that then giving 2 goals away almost every game. Of all the recent owners (not including ESI) I see these new ones as having the worst start - Roland came in and immediately we were saved from relegation and finished a safe mid-table the following season. In the summer of 2015 he sold off his other clubs and lost interest in ours too, but the network model actually did work to some extent. Even under Sandgaard our initial window took us from having a very thin squad to a team that went into the top 6 until Inniss got injured and we started leaking goals. Our targets seem to have all been about attacking, or bringing in youth. We need experience in right-back, urgently, and better tracking back by the team when they lose possession. i don't think Duchatalet wanted to do what the OP has suggested; he wanted to run a network, so they could be moved around more easily. Even when below-standard players were signed early on, it was easy to move them on to a club lower down his "network". As long as that was the case, it worked reasonably well.
CAFC BVI (Jiminez & Slater) took a haircut on their loans even though they secured promotion - they wanted too much and the wheels started to fall off when they eventually sold
Duchatelet and Staprix will realise a loss at the point they sell the assets at market value. But he's in no hurry to do that
ESI put nothing in
And the accounts for last season will reveal just how much Sandgaard and Clear Ocean Capital lost over three years compared to the sale for c. £11M Most clubs lose money but some change hands for large amounts. GFP & SE7 Partners pursued a £10M bid because they saw us as a decent target with a top Academy, Community Trust as well as The Valley. The reward is high for them IF they can return us to the top half of the Championship or even the EPL. But that journey is expensive. It's entirely up to the SMT to develop the playing side (which in turn will raise attendances) and the commercial revenue streams. My understanding is that Methven is the spokesperson as well as working on commercial with Steve Sutherland. They haven't shared their targets nor a timescale but every 100K raised helps the club by either providing for more wages or reducing the losses. Perhaps the SMT need to say more once the window closes and ideally our form and league position stabilises. The start is bad in terms of just one win in five. But the XG is OK and they have already replaced 3/4 of the matchday 18. September will tell us more about where we are once the window closed and Leaburn plus Fraser back. |
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Post by earlpurple on Aug 27, 2023 15:19:46 GMT
xG for is no use if we give goals away, which is our downfall. We've scored in all but one game, but conceded 2 or more in each of our last 3 defeats.
I do recall someone pointing out our early performances in the 2019-2020 were far outweighing our xG therefore the run would come to an end soon, and indeed it did and we plummeted, but I put that more down to our injury list.
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Post by reamsofverse on Aug 28, 2023 8:30:18 GMT
Again more threads based on personal belief rather than an ounce of substance.
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Post by massivebeak on Aug 28, 2023 8:44:38 GMT
Again more threads based on personal belief rather than an ounce of substance. Even you have to admit that time is running out for them? It doesn’t look good mate. |
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Post by aaronaldo on Aug 28, 2023 12:11:28 GMT
Again more threads based on personal belief rather than an ounce of substance. Even you have to admit that time is running out for them? It doesn’t look good mate. Time is running out for new owners which have barely been in charge a month? Are you sure? |
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Post by massivebeak on Aug 28, 2023 12:38:09 GMT
Even you have to admit that time is running out for them? It doesn’t look good mate. Time is running out for new owners which have barely been in charge a month? Are you sure? I meant time running out in the transfer window. Yes I’m sure. |
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Post by reamsofverse on Aug 28, 2023 12:43:55 GMT
This window possibly but they need two more to build a promotion winning squad.
I am sure another two or three wil arrive before the next game.
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Post by seriouslyred on Aug 28, 2023 13:56:00 GMT
Again more threads based on personal belief rather than an ounce of substance. Even you have to admit that time is running out for them? It doesn’t look good mate. On reflection the decision to sack Holden looks clinical. Obviously they need to get the replacement right. Somebody more aligned with Scott on formations, tactics and player development. They have a two year budget with losses agreed with EFL and investors. So perhaps another two windows to deliver real improves and a promotion challenge next season. Much to do over next 12 months. |
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Post by bexleyboy on Aug 28, 2023 14:52:50 GMT
The billionaire owners, Friedmann etc. have no say whatsoever in the running of the club. I wish Methven would either let us know if he's running the club or leaving it to others who know better, because maybe the real experts who know how to run a football club could tell him his model just won't work - in fact there is no real way to make profit in football and that the success of the owners is really pride of what they've achieved for the club and not how much profit they have made. The idea of billionaire owners is they can afford to lose a couple of million a year without it hurting, because that is exactly what is going to happen. Football is "broken" if this is the way it is at the moment pretty much at all levels. But it is. Of course it's not enough to play "attacking" football, you have to be able to defend as well, and it's been our downfall under Garner and Holden is that we don't defend properly. If it means playing a bit ugly to get a winning team that gets lots of 1-0s I'd rather have that then giving 2 goals away almost every game. Of all the recent owners (not including ESI) I see these new ones as having the worst start - Roland came in and immediately we were saved from relegation and finished a safe mid-table the following season. In the summer of 2015 he sold off his other clubs and lost interest in ours too, but the network model actually did work to some extent. Even under Sandgaard our initial window took us from having a very thin squad to a team that went into the top 6 until Inniss got injured and we started leaking goals. Our targets seem to have all been about attacking, or bringing in youth. We need experience in right-back, urgently, and better tracking back by the team when they lose possession. i don't think Duchatalet wanted to do what the OP has suggested; he wanted to run a network, so they could be moved around more easily. Even when below-standard players were signed early on, it was easy to move them on to a club lower down his "network". As long as that was the case, it worked reasonably well. He not |
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Post by bexleyboy on Aug 28, 2023 14:54:26 GMT
Again more threads based on personal belief rather than an ounce of substance. Even you have to admit that time is running out for them? It doesn’t look good mate. Ridiculous they only been in the post two weeks .. have a lay down for god sake |
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Post by massivebeak on Aug 28, 2023 14:59:36 GMT
Even you have to admit that time is running out for them? It doesn’t look good mate. Ridiculous they only been in the post two weeks .. have a lay down for god sake Time running out in the transfer window!!!!!! Jesus I should be more specific. |
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Post by massivebeak on Aug 28, 2023 15:01:32 GMT
Even you have to admit that time is running out for them? It doesn’t look good mate. Ridiculous they only been in the post two weeks .. have a lay down for god sake Me have a lay down?! Mate you’re the biggest WUM going. |
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Post by seriouslyred on Aug 28, 2023 15:51:27 GMT
Ridiculous they only been in the post two weeks .. have a lay down for god sake Time running out in the transfer window!!!!!! Jesus I should be more specific. It helps especially when emotions flying high! Window closes soon but would only expect one or two new faces. And one or two leave? We have most of the matchday 18 already and just need Leaburn and Fraser back in September. |
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Post by earlpurple on Aug 28, 2023 16:17:11 GMT
The key additions to me have to be in defence. Stop leaking goals and we start winning games. Winning games in any manner brings confidence.
The worst a coach can do is suggest a player in their squad is useless, or that their squad as a whole is. That was Conte's downfall last year after Spurs squanded a 3-1 lead against Southampton, and that was his last game in charge. "How to not let that happen again" is how a coach should address what happened.
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Post by seriouslyred on Aug 30, 2023 23:27:40 GMT
The key additions to me have to be in defence. Stop leaking goals and we start winning games. Winning games in any manner brings confidence. The worst a coach can do is suggest a player in their squad is useless, or that their squad as a whole is. That was Conte's downfall last year after Spurs squanded a 3-1 lead against Southampton, and that was his last game in charge. "How to not let that happen again" is how a coach should address what happened. That's exactly what Pearce is tasked with this week as he prepares for a winnable game with more players available and less baggage. Worth listening to NTT20 podcast from 48 minutes in. A full 12 minutes discussion around Charlton with contrasting views about our squad. open.spotify.com/episode/5p8SDKq7NfY4Wb9yaZiAtQ |
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Post by valley on Aug 31, 2023 4:38:11 GMT
Thread on the sunderland forum from cafc fans not happy with Se7 Partners.
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Post by reamsofverse on Aug 31, 2023 14:17:07 GMT
Thread on the sunderland forum from cafc fans not happy with Se7 Partners. Haven't spoken to me yet! Have they been in touch with anyone else? I think they need to get their own house in order first looking at the league table. |
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Post by vaangard on Sept 1, 2023 19:46:46 GMT
From CL:-
Senior players who will still be in contract next summer.
GK
Isted
AMB
DEF
Jones
Edun
MID
Fraser
Taylor
T.Campbell
(Kirk)
(McGrandles)
STR
May
Leaburn
(Aneke)
Who thinks Tyreece and Miles will be here this time next year? So we will be down to bare bones, untried kids and deadline day punts again! 7 senior players!
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Post by valley on Sept 1, 2023 21:28:11 GMT
RE What links does Cardinal Sin have to rival bids? How did we know that Leneghan was involved before he turned up?
it’s been explained multiple times why no documents have been shared, but how is it going do you think? Do we have multiple small shareholders? What is the plan?
When people show you who they are it’s a good idea to believe them. Methven that to a TV audience of his own volition. He’s been doing it here since last December. It’s playing out on real time. Worst start in 33 years. Chosen manager sacked after five games.
Ask Curbs, Brownie or Powell about the squad. What’s so hard to understand?
He worried about selling our younger players one day.
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Post by aaronaldo on Sept 1, 2023 22:33:58 GMT
RE What links does Cardinal Sin have to rival bids? How did we know that Leneghan was involved before he turned up? it’s been explained multiple times why no documents have been shared, but how is it going do you think? Do we have multiple small shareholders? What is the plan? When people show you who they are it’s a good idea to believe them. Methven that to a TV audience of his own volition. He’s been doing it here since last December. It’s playing out on real time. Worst start in 33 years. Chosen manager sacked after five games. Ask Curbs, Brownie or Powell about the squad. What’s so hard to understand? He worried about selling our younger players one day. Huh? |
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Post by surridgecobbler5 on Sept 7, 2023 11:12:21 GMT
xG for is no use if we give goals away, which is our downfall. We've scored in all but one game, but conceded 2 or more in each of our last 3 defeats. I do recall someone pointing out our early performances in the 2019-2020 were far outweighing our xG therefore the run would come to an end soon, and indeed it did and we plummeted, but I put that more down to our injury list. |
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Post by surridgecobbler5 on Sept 7, 2023 11:15:55 GMT
The rationale from that, then is the £12m SE7 paid for the club was effectively to buy the future revenue stream of the Academy products.
The general club situation is no more important than being the infrastructure for that model to flourish.
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Post by Mundell on Sept 7, 2023 11:33:41 GMT
The rationale from that, then is the £12m SE7 paid for the club was effectively to buy the future revenue stream of the Academy products. The general club situation is no more important than being the infrastructure for that model to flourish. …. but you can’t have the future revenue stream of the Academy products without also funding the club’s operating losses. SE7 has bought the club with the intention of winning promotion to the Championship. That’s a stone cold fact. The question isn’t about that, it’s whether they can win promotion without spending more money than they’ve budgeted to spend. However, if they fail to win promotion they’ll lose money not make it. That’s also a fact. |
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Post by reamsofverse on Sept 7, 2023 11:43:58 GMT
RE What links does Cardinal Sin have to rival bids? How did we know that Leneghan was involved before he turned up? it’s been explained multiple times why no documents have been shared, but how is it going do you think? Do we have multiple small shareholders? What is the plan? When people show you who they are it’s a good idea to believe them. Methven that to a TV audience of his own volition. He’s been doing it here since last December. It’s playing out on real time. Worst start in 33 years. Chosen manager sacked after five games. Ask Curbs, Brownie or Powell about the squad. What’s so hard to understand? He worried about selling our younger players one day. Don't get this at all? |
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Post by discocafc on Sept 17, 2023 7:43:11 GMT
I had a good chat with Jim Rodwell and Paul Elliot on the train yesterday.
I can’t remember everything they told me but the main reason why bought Charlton because of the location and the academy. I also asked them about The Valley and Sparrows lane and they’re continuing to discuss with Roland about arrangements.
I also mentioned about the fact we had Curbs for 15 years and we not had a manager who have completed a full season since Chris Powell apart from Bowyer and they understood my concerns about this. They also admired Appleton’s tactical approach towards the end of the game.
I told them what Sandgaard promised us originally and told them that actions speak louder than words and understood they didn’t say anything about their plans. Jim said he doesn’t see any point promising the world as they need to do the talking on the pitch and background.
The last thing they mentioned to me as walking off the train that ‘it’s a marathon, not a sprint’ I was a little taken aback by that first but eventually nodded with them and shook their hand. It is a marathon and not a sprint as Charlton have been so f**ked up over the years that they probably need to get our house in order.
Overall, it was a pleasant chat with them. Just hope they turn out good to be this time!
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