That CAST Meeting last week

[seriouslyred]

Dec 12, 2022 22:27:01 GMT reamsofverse said:

Dec 12, 2022 19:37:12 GMT wellingaddick said:

So protests are not recommended despite the fake Dane having us nose diving towards L2. Protests were advised though when RD was blamed for us going down to L1.

Says it all really. Double standards.

Hope Charlton fans get stuck into him at the Brighton match.

Thanks for the updates welling. 👍

The protests back in the 2015/16 season started as a spontaneous reaction to Fraeye and a nosedive towards relegation.

The difference this time is that the owner is committed to far heavier cost cutting and we are headed towards League Two unless we can win a game.

Back in 2016 CARD were dedicated to breaking all communications with the club. And continued activity until success on the pitch again rendered them impotent.

Let's see what happens at the Brighton game. CAFC needs Sandgaard to sell in 2023 - going to be an interesting chapter, that's for sure.

[smudge7946]

Dec 12, 2022 20:48:27 GMT 19addickted96 said:

Dec 12, 2022 20:35:50 GMT smudge7946 said:

I've been listening too. CAST are coming across as well meaning nerds. A charter won't solve anything

Not too sure what you expect CAST/those in the webinar to do?

Barring ‘we need to start protests’- what are you suggesting we do that will solve the issue

Presenting Tommy with a list of demands or else, when we owe him 10 million is a very silly idea.

[Mundell]

Dec 12, 2022 20:34:22 GMT newyorkaddick said:

I'm listening to the call - they are all very well-meaning and eloquent but consistently miss the fundamental point that in any realistic scenario the club loses millions pa

At no point has CAST made a serious attempt to engage with the financial challenges facing the club. That was true when Duchatelet owned the club and it appears still to be true. Instead, they have continued to perpetuate a cake and eat it fantasy which is likely to be a complete turn off for any sensible owner. ‘It doesn’t have to be this way’ and ‘unnecessary relegation’ are quotes that spring to mind. 

Three simple examples from last night. First, why were attendees being asked about fan ownership? How might that work, exactly? Second, the Fan’s Charter appears to be calling for a return to an all powerful manager model. In the modern game no competent owner is going to operate that way. And third, also in the Fan’s Charter, there is a demand for an experienced CEO who runs the club from SE7. That’s so specific to the current situation it’s almost laughable. It’s also almost completely irrelevant. 

I know it’s easy to be an armchair critic, but my own conclusion is that if we want a progressive and successful football club the last thing we need is more fan involvement. 

Just my perspective. 

PS Did CARD’s Head of Propaganda make a tacit admission last night that the industrialisation of protests when Duchatelet owned the club was a mistake? We all know the Belgian was a bit eccentric, but he was a better owner than Sandgaard. 

[Deleted]

Having had a think about the CAST meeting last night. & discussed it with a few fellow fans, my thoughts FWIW -

1. Rick Everitt

I have no idea why this guy still gets such prominence. It’s like Newsnight in 2022 inviting Neil Kinnock onto their show every week. A lot of time was wasted last night in RE going over familiar arguments. Yes, we all know he loves Varney and thinks the spell that he was running Valley Express was the Golden Age at the club, but as many others including Mundell have pointed out - why the double standards in the approach he took towards Duchatelet (megaphone in hand in the car park, “let’s make the club unmanageable ”), and his bizarre comments last night about protests being a bad idea 💦

We are 18th in L1, and we had 5000 paying CAFC fans in the Valley v Cheltenham. We never plumbed those depths under Duchatelet, so why the double standards

Many fans feel that agendas are at play (again) with these people, but regardless of that, he’s one voice, quite a dated one now, with one opinion. Everyone I know will be ignoring his comments last night.

2. Empty promises

It feels like the TS PR machine has been at work in recent days, with several comments, including from the Great Bullshitter himself, that we are looking at players in January. Hopefully this fools nobody. We always start looking at players when there’s a protest or a confrontation with TS in the offing. Fool me once …

[newyorkaddick]

Watching last night I wondered what one of the apparently interested investors would've concluded if they were watching (which they might have been). Would it have made getting involved more appealing or less? Almost certainly the latter in my view - can you imagine a rough tough US investor (unlike a joke figure like TS) being presented with a charter as a sine qua non to ensure CAST's cooperation? They'd laugh them out of the room.

[manikin]

Personally I think waiting for paint to dry is more constructive than that meeting.

[milano]

Dec 13, 2022 8:55:13 GMT @workinglikeants said:

Having had a think about the CAST meeting last night. & discussed it with a few fellow fans, my thoughts FWIW -

1. Rick Everitt

I have no idea why this guy still gets such prominence. It’s like Newsnight in 2022 inviting Neil Kinnock onto their show every week. A lot of time was wasted last night in RE going over familiar arguments. Yes, we all know he loves Varney and thinks the spell that he was running Valley Express was the Golden Age at the club, but as many others including Mundell have pointed out - why the double standards in the approach he took towards Duchatelet (megaphone in hand in the car park, “let’s make the club unmanageable ”), and his bizarre comments last night about protests being a bad idea 💦

We are 18th in L1, and we had 5000 paying CAFC fans in the Valley v Cheltenham. We never plumbed those depths under Duchatelet, so why the double standards

Many fans feel that agendas are at play (again) with these people, but regardless of that, he’s one voice, quite a dated one now, with one opinion. Everyone I know will be ignoring his comments last night.

2. Empty promises

It feels like the TS PR machine has been at work in recent days, with several comments, including from the Great Bullshitter himself, that we are looking at players in January. Hopefully this fools nobody. We always start looking at players when there’s a protest or a confrontation with TS in the offing. Fool me once …

I know you have no time for Rick Everitt, that's your choice. But perhaps it's worth considering his 'no protest at the Brighton game' suggestion, is simply because he, like many of us, is hoping potential new investors will be in attendance. So a strong positive fan response would be more encouraging than a strong negative.
By the new year, it's my opinion, if nothing has changed Re. TS ownership, that will be the time for protests to begin.

[Mundell]

Dec 13, 2022 9:22:31 GMT milano said:

Dec 13, 2022 8:55:13 GMT @workinglikeants said:

Having had a think about the CAST meeting last night. & discussed it with a few fellow fans, my thoughts FWIW -

1. Rick Everitt

I have no idea why this guy still gets such prominence. It’s like Newsnight in 2022 inviting Neil Kinnock onto their show every week. A lot of time was wasted last night in RE going over familiar arguments. Yes, we all know he loves Varney and thinks the spell that he was running Valley Express was the Golden Age at the club, but as many others including Mundell have pointed out - why the double standards in the approach he took towards Duchatelet (megaphone in hand in the car park, “let’s make the club unmanageable ”), and his bizarre comments last night about protests being a bad idea 💦

We are 18th in L1, and we had 5000 paying CAFC fans in the Valley v Cheltenham. We never plumbed those depths under Duchatelet, so why the double standards

Many fans feel that agendas are at play (again) with these people, but regardless of that, he’s one voice, quite a dated one now, with one opinion. Everyone I know will be ignoring his comments last night.

2. Empty promises

It feels like the TS PR machine has been at work in recent days, with several comments, including from the Great Bullshitter himself, that we are looking at players in January. Hopefully this fools nobody. We always start looking at players when there’s a protest or a confrontation with TS in the offing. Fool me once …

I know you have no time for Rick Everitt, that's your choice. But perhaps it's worth considering his 'no protest at the Brighton game' suggestion, is simply because he, like many of us, is hoping potential new investors will be in attendance. So a strong positive fan response would be more encouraging than a strong negative.
By the new year, it's my opinion, if nothing has changed Re. TS ownership, that will be the time for protests to begin.

The same was true when Duchatelet owned the club though. Indeed, fan protests are not unusual when a team is struggling. A few fans shouting 'sack the board' is almost expected. What is not usual though is an industrial scale protest movement which seeks to 'make the club unmanageable', to embarrass sponsors so that they withdraw their support, concerted attempts to disrupt all sources of income and the throwing of items onto the pitch to delay matches. That kind of protest movement, which said, "Do it our way or we'll force you out" is likely to put off potential buyers who might well believe they'll be next. Its also likely to impact potential coaches and players. Perhaps Everitt has now realised this? Or perhaps he's just following Varney's lead for some reason. Either way, the blatant inconsistency is manifest as @workinglikeants has explained. 

[reamsofverse]

Dec 13, 2022 9:22:31 GMT milano said:

Dec 13, 2022 8:55:13 GMT @workinglikeants said:

Having had a think about the CAST meeting last night. & discussed it with a few fellow fans, my thoughts FWIW -

1. Rick Everitt

I have no idea why this guy still gets such prominence. It’s like Newsnight in 2022 inviting Neil Kinnock onto their show every week. A lot of time was wasted last night in RE going over familiar arguments. Yes, we all know he loves Varney and thinks the spell that he was running Valley Express was the Golden Age at the club, but as many others including Mundell have pointed out - why the double standards in the approach he took towards Duchatelet (megaphone in hand in the car park, “let’s make the club unmanageable ”), and his bizarre comments last night about protests being a bad idea 💦

We are 18th in L1, and we had 5000 paying CAFC fans in the Valley v Cheltenham. We never plumbed those depths under Duchatelet, so why the double standards

Many fans feel that agendas are at play (again) with these people, but regardless of that, he’s one voice, quite a dated one now, with one opinion. Everyone I know will be ignoring his comments last night.

2. Empty promises

It feels like the TS PR machine has been at work in recent days, with several comments, including from the Great Bullshitter himself, that we are looking at players in January. Hopefully this fools nobody. We always start looking at players when there’s a protest or a confrontation with TS in the offing. Fool me once …

I know you have no time for Rick Everitt, that's your choice. But perhaps it's worth considering his 'no protest at the Brighton game' suggestion, is simply because he, like many of us, is hoping potential new investors will be in attendance. So a strong positive fan response would be more encouraging than a strong negative.
By the new year, it's my opinion, if nothing has changed Re. TS ownership, that will be the time for protests to begin.

A potential new owner seeing protests against the current owner would be music to their ears wouldn't it.

Embarassing Sandgaard into a quick sale can only be a good thing.

[reamsofverse]

A fan owned club will never work especially at Charlton where Bovril and the womens team seem to be as equally important as the grave position the mens team finds itself in.

Some people crave power but it has proven at so many others around the country that while in safer hands, progress on the pitch is rare. I can only think os Swansea where it's had some kind of success. Wrexham were fan owned until their takeover and they haven't looked back since.

Fans alone can't take their clubs to the next level.

[Deleted]

Dec 13, 2022 10:19:01 GMT reamsofverse said:

A fan owned club will never work especially at Charlton where Bovril and the womens team seem to be as equally important as the grave position the mens team finds itself in.

Some people crave power but it has proven at so many others around the country that while in safer hands, progress on the pitch is rare. I can only think os Swansea where it's had some kind of success. Wrexham were fan owned until their takeover and they haven't looked back since.

Fans alone can't take their clubs to the next level.

I agree a fan owned Club is a non starter. What we need now is an owner who is going to reunite the Valley and SL with the Club. Also to run the Club properly for the benefit of Charlton and its supporters, not as a vanity project for a narcissist. The new owner doesn’t have to spend a huge amount, but replacing the current recruitment team is a must if we are going to progress.

[Deleted]

Dec 13, 2022 10:37:47 GMT @dickplumb said:

Dec 13, 2022 10:19:01 GMT reamsofverse said:

A fan owned club will never work especially at Charlton where Bovril and the womens team seem to be as equally important as the grave position the mens team finds itself in.

Some people crave power but it has proven at so many others around the country that while in safer hands, progress on the pitch is rare. I can only think os Swansea where it's had some kind of success. Wrexham were fan owned until their takeover and they haven't looked back since.

Fans alone can't take their clubs to the next level.

I agree a fan owned Club is a non starter. What we need now is an owner who is going to reunite the Valley and SL with the Club. Also to run the Club properly for the benefit of Charlton and its supporters, not as a vanity project for a narcissist. The new owner doesn’t have to spend a huge amount, but replacing the current recruitment team is a must if we are going to progress.

I was half expecting the women’s team & the Bovril content to be raised, but I thought the fan’s ownership stuff was completely bizarre. It’s La La Land territory.

CAST’s role at the Fans Forum on Thursday night should be very straightforward.

CAST: “The fanbase wants you to sell and leave. What are your plans to do so?”

[seriouslyred]

Dec 13, 2022 9:59:53 GMT Mundell said:

Dec 13, 2022 9:22:31 GMT milano said:

I know you have no time for Rick Everitt, that's your choice. But perhaps it's worth considering his 'no protest at the Brighton game' suggestion, is simply because he, like many of us, is hoping potential new investors will be in attendance. So a strong positive fan response would be more encouraging than a strong negative.
By the new year, it's my opinion, if nothing has changed Re. TS ownership, that will be the time for protests to begin.

The same was true when Duchatelet owned the club though. Indeed, fan protests are not unusual when a team is struggling. A few fans shouting 'sack the board' is almost expected. What is not usual though is an industrial scale protest movement which seeks to 'make the club unmanageable', to embarrass sponsors so that they withdraw their support, concerted attempts to disrupt all sources of income and the throwing of items onto the pitch to delay matches. That kind of protest movement, which said, "Do it our way or we'll force you out" is likely to put off potential buyers who might well believe they'll be next. Its also likely to impact potential coaches and players. Perhaps Everitt has now realised this? Or perhaps he's just following Varney's lead for some reason. Either way, the blatant inconsistency is manifest as @workinglikeants has explained. 

Noticed yesterday Varney being battered by a critic on Twitter. Varney enters the fray criticising four managers over a 12 month period and somebody cites four managers in 12 months back in 2006!

But that's an aside. Many say we must all do something, but holding this discussion is perhaps the most fruitfull action?

Does CAFC need to own the Valley?
What is the fans' role beyond attending & promoting the club?
How might CAFC climb from 60th in the pyramid back to the top 40?

My answers are no, rational discussion about football & commercial strategy, and finally six places per season with a competent DoF and appropriate budgets to build a squad.

All due respect to those who differ but perhaps the real question is how does this all come across to those looking in. And this "CAFC charter" is quite simply a long way from that which is required to stabilise and advance the club.

And no doubt when a new owner does appear, Messrs Varney and Everitt will apply to "get the band back together" as if nobody else could do the job or that things haven't moved on in 20 years.

My own appreciation for the SMT of 2018/19 is not just confined to our Wembley experience, but also that those people (of which only Gallen remains) were able to develop a basic squad left by KR and deliver a top six side. And that took serious budgets, stability and a competitive edge.

CAST don't even begin to address the budgets required nor where five years of losses might come from. Instead they maintain a nostalgic view of a club in the sunset oblivious to the fact that there has been no big queue of billionaires awaiting a chance to pick up the keys.

[milano]

Dec 13, 2022 10:12:02 GMT reamsofverse said:

Dec 13, 2022 9:22:31 GMT milano said:

I know you have no time for Rick Everitt, that's your choice. But perhaps it's worth considering his 'no protest at the Brighton game' suggestion, is simply because he, like many of us, is hoping potential new investors will be in attendance. So a strong positive fan response would be more encouraging than a strong negative.
By the new year, it's my opinion, if nothing has changed Re. TS ownership, that will be the time for protests to begin.

A potential new owner seeing protests against the current owner would be music to their ears wouldn't it.

Embarassing Sandgaard into a quick sale can only be a good thing.

I'm fairly confident any new investor(s) are fully aware of the current fans feelings about the ownership and teams trajectory.

I'm not sure Sandgaard can be embarassed. His ego prevents it.

[mikebassett]

I think fan ownership is vitally important in football at all levels. Firstly, we’ve seen first hand what bad ownership does to a football club and its fanbase, more than once. We’ve also seen examples of this at Blackpool, Blackburn, Bury, Macclesfield, Coventry, Orient, Man United, Southend and Scunthorpe to name a few examples. While I’m not advocating complete fan ownership or the 50+1 ruling you see in Germany, fan representation is a must, I think.

[Deleted]

Dec 13, 2022 12:31:10 GMT mikebassett said:

I think fan ownership is vitally important in football at all levels. Firstly, we’ve seen first hand what bad ownership does to a football club and its fanbase, more than once. We’ve also seen examples of this at Blackpool, Blackburn, Bury, Macclesfield, Coventry, Orient, Man United, Southend and Scunthorpe to name a few examples. While I’m not advocating complete fan ownership or the 50+1 ruling you see in Germany, fan representation is a must, I think.

I respectfully disagree with you on Fan Ownership.

Personally, I have no wish to be employed by the club, have a role at the club, financially contribute to the club (beyond tickets & VG), or decide how the club is run.

I realise that all of the above makes me very different to many prominent members of CAST / CARD, who have always believed that the club cannot exist unless they are employed by it.

All most of us want is a sensible & decent human being as owner, who doesn’t over spend, but runs the club properly. Roger Alwen is the ideal template for what we as fans should be seeking.

[jonkool]

Dec 12, 2022 23:46:51 GMT @mildred said:

Each to their own I suppose.If Tommy walks away sharpish and does no more damage to the club he may even have my gratitude. He rocked up at the right time, made a lot of noise and he kinda tried, but ran out of money and bullshit. I suppose it’s the equivalent of a mid life crisis some of us have hair transplants others buy football clubs. Sometimes you have the best intentions but you don’t have the cash. We all make mistakes, the tragedy is not recognising them.

Is it me or is tricky Ricky trying to orchestrate some sort of power show here? Trying to stop demonstrations when only 3 years ago he said he could make cafc unmanageable. that little scamp is up to something. Is he once again sniffing at the pants of a prospective buyer in order to earn their favour?

It does beg the question 🤔

[kings hill addick]

Dec 13, 2022 13:35:09 GMT @workinglikeants said:

Dec 13, 2022 12:31:10 GMT mikebassett said:

I think fan ownership is vitally important in football at all levels. Firstly, we’ve seen first hand what bad ownership does to a football club and its fanbase, more than once. We’ve also seen examples of this at Blackpool, Blackburn, Bury, Macclesfield, Coventry, Orient, Man United, Southend and Scunthorpe to name a few examples. While I’m not advocating complete fan ownership or the 50+1 ruling you see in Germany, fan representation is a must, I think.

I respectfully disagree with you on Fan Ownership.

Personally, I have no wish to be employed by the club, have a role at the club, financially contribute to the club (beyond tickets & VG), or decide how the club is run.

I realise that all of the above makes me very different to many prominent members of CAST / CARD, who have always believed that the club cannot exist unless they are employed by it.

All most of us want is a sensible & decent human being as owner, who doesn’t over spend, but runs the club properly. Roger Alwen is the ideal template for what we as fans should be seeking.

When you say that you do not want to decide how the club is run - half your posts on here are telling the world just what you expect/demand those running the club to do. As well as telling other fans what you expect/demand they should do.

When you say you want the club to be run properly and not over spend, how does that equate to your demand for several/many Championship players to be signed?

You are very quick to point the finger at those that just want to go along and watch the football (even thought I don't think anyone does that) but you've just insisted that that is, exactly, what you want to be.

For the record, I agree with you in that I do not think that fan ownership can ever work at Charlton, nor do I believe that the answer is to bring back all those that were at the club in the late 90s - the cost of football is, quite clearly, beyond those owners, now, and the football landscape is so different that I would not expect we could recreate the early 2000s.

However, that doesn't prevent me from feeling obliged to point out the outrageous hypocrisy in your post.

[Deleted]

This is how fan ownership clubs work

We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune! We're taking
turns to act as a sort of executive-officer-for-the-week--
Arthur: (uninterested) Yes...
Man: But all the decisions *of* that officer 'ave to be ratified at a
special bi-weekly meeting--
Arthur: (perturbed) Yes I see!
Man: By a simple majority, in the case of purely internal affairs--
Arthur: (mad) Be quiet!
Man: But by a two-thirds majority, in the case of more major--
Arthur: (very angry) BE QUIET! I *order* you to be quiet!
Woman: "Order", eh, 'oo does 'e think 'e is?
Arthur: I am your king!
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you!
Arthur: You don't vote for kings!
Woman: Well 'ow'd you become king then?
(holy music up)
Arthur: The Lady of the Lake-- her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite,
held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by
divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry……

[mikebassett]

Dec 13, 2022 13:35:09 GMT @workinglikeants said:

Dec 13, 2022 12:31:10 GMT mikebassett said:

I think fan ownership is vitally important in football at all levels. Firstly, we’ve seen first hand what bad ownership does to a football club and its fanbase, more than once. We’ve also seen examples of this at Blackpool, Blackburn, Bury, Macclesfield, Coventry, Orient, Man United, Southend and Scunthorpe to name a few examples. While I’m not advocating complete fan ownership or the 50+1 ruling you see in Germany, fan representation is a must, I think.

I respectfully disagree with you on Fan Ownership.

Personally, I have no wish to be employed by the club, have a role at the club, financially contribute to the club (beyond tickets & VG), or decide how the club is run.

I realise that all of the above makes me very different to many prominent members of CAST / CARD, who have always believed that the club cannot exist unless they are employed by it.

All most of us want is a sensible & decent human being as owner, who doesn’t over spend, but runs the club properly. Roger Alwen is the ideal template for what we as fans should be seeking.

You don’t have to if you don’t want to. Like most things, it’s a choice.

[zenga]

Dec 13, 2022 10:37:47 GMT @dickplumb said:

The new owner doesn’t have to spend a huge amount, but replacing the current recruitment team is a must if we are going to progress.

Until the point where a club is self-sustainable, "not spending a huge amount" remains wishful thinking if an owner has to pony up 5-10 million each year just to keep the club afloat. And that is before player acquisitions. Owners see that as 'spending', fans see that as something that comes with the territory. I'm still convinced that the bubble will eventually burst, as there are more clubs needing a good owner willing to spend that cash than there are good owners available. 

My point being, no matter who the new owner is, he/she/them will have to spend a significant amount of money.

[Deleted]

Dec 14, 2022 3:53:48 GMT zenga said:

Dec 13, 2022 10:37:47 GMT @dickplumb said:

The new owner doesn’t have to spend a huge amount, but replacing the current recruitment team is a must if we are going to progress.

Until the point where a club is self-sustainable, "not spending a huge amount" remains wishful thinking if an owner has to pony up 5-10 million each year just to keep the club afloat. And that is before player acquisitions. Owners see that as 'spending', fans see that as something that comes with the territory. I'm still convinced that the bubble will eventually burst, as there are more clubs needing a good owner willing to spend that cash than there are good owners available. 

My point being, no matter who the new owner is, he/she/them will have to spend a significant amount of money.

What is a significant amount of money? If we stay in League one season on Season the owner will be losing significant amounts of money. Clubs in difficulty will be selling players at much lower rates. There will be bargains to be had. If we stay in League one for many years the support will drift away. Ipswich have shown how it should be done by investing in the squad, not in an outlandish way. Look at where they are.

[Mundell]

Dec 14, 2022 3:53:48 GMT zenga said:

Dec 13, 2022 10:37:47 GMT @dickplumb said:

The new owner doesn’t have to spend a huge amount, but replacing the current recruitment team is a must if we are going to progress.

Until the point where a club is self-sustainable, "not spending a huge amount" remains wishful thinking if an owner has to pony up 5-10 million each year just to keep the club afloat. And that is before player acquisitions. Owners see that as 'spending', fans see that as something that comes with the territory. I'm still convinced that the bubble will eventually burst, as there are more clubs needing a good owner willing to spend that cash than there are good owners available. 

My point being, no matter who the new owner is, he/she/them will have to spend a significant amount of money.

I completely agree zenga In the Trust’s constitution it says the following, 

“The Society’s purpose is to be the vehicle through which a healthy, balanced and constructive relationship between the Club and its supporters and the communities it serves is encouraged and developed.”

There has been precious little evidence of any real attempt to do this. Holding meetings to press an agenda doesn’t qualify. The following objective gives the game away though, 

“achieving the greatest possible supporter and community influence in the running and ownership of the Club”

What is an owner supposed to make of that? As I said above, at no point has the Trust engaged seriously in the existential challenge of funding. The club could become sustainable or fan owned. There are clubs in the EFL that operate at break even or close to it and most of them are less well supported than Charlton. There is a problem though. None of them are likely to challenge for promotion to the Championship and therein lies the trade off. You can’t have your cake and eat it. 

[Deleted]

The reason the vast majority don’t buy into CARD is the attitude of their leaders.

Another fan’s group met with them recently, and got absolutely nowhere.

It speaks volumes that out of a purported 2700 members, three of their most vocal & some might say self important leaders are against protests against Sandgaard, including dear old Richard Wiseman, who is so out of touch he still thinks Mark Hulyer is our owner.

Gareth Southgate was described this week as a liberal leader fronting an illiberal fanbase, and I think there’s some truth in that with regards to CAST and our wider fanbase.

It’s the acid test for Heather & Co on Thursday night. Now is not the time for Fan’s Charters & discussions about Bovril content.

[Deleted]

The problem with CAST is that they have the sting of a butterfly. A Supporters Trust who do their job properly should ask the difficult questions and don’t allow yourself to be always fobbed off. Sandgaard will give us the usual B/S and CAST will believe it.

[kings hill addick]

Dec 14, 2022 11:01:12 GMT @dickplumb said:

The problem with CAST is that they have the sting of a butterfly. A Supporters Trust who do their job properly should ask the difficult questions and don’t allow yourself to be always fobbed off. Sandgaard will give us the usual B/S and CAST will believe it.

To be fair, what else can they do? If they push Sandgaard too much he'll just stop talking to them.

Ignoring alternative owners for a moment, the club needs Sandgaard’s financial backing or it closes down. Sandgaard doesn't need the approval of the Trust, the Supporters' Club or the fans in general. Look at Man Utd. Their fans have been targeting the Glazers for over fifteen years and they just ignore them and go about their business. Arguably Man Utd have suffered a more significant fall from grace and decline than we have, but the owners have ignored the fans and are now, fifteen years later, going to sell the cub and make billions, leaving someone else to rebuild the stadium and the squad.

I want Sandgaard gone, and have been saying so since long before most others did, including Reams. I want him gone for all the reasons that other fans are just starting to agree with. However, he cannot be made to do anything. I said for years that Duchâtelet will not be forced out of the club. The aim of some individuals was to ‘bully’ him into selling the club for £1. He was never going to do that, and he didn’t. Duchâtelet sold when he got the offer he wanted and he will, probably, get close to the £50m he wanted for the club, in the end.

Sandgaard is in a slightly different position because he seems to have run out of money. Ironically, Duchâtelet never starved the club (squad) of the money it needed to compete; this is what Sandgaard is going to do until he walks away. The longer he is here the worse off the club will be, but if he, genuinely, does keep reducing costs he might be able to afford to keep the club for many more months.

I’m not sure telling a rich, rather thick, arrogant, egotistical, narcissist that he has to sell the club is going to get the reaction that some of us would like.

That said, I have real reservations as to the value of the Supporters’ Trusts. Not just ours but all clubs. Modern football is run by such wealthy people that the fans are not, really, necessary and cannot make much of a dent in the running costs. So, fans can be ignored. If the Man Utd fans can be ignored by Americans for over fifteen years, all the while their success on the pitch dwindles, what chance to we have of chasing out the fool who is doing the same to us?

[Deleted]

Dec 14, 2022 11:01:12 GMT @dickplumb said:

The problem with CAST is that they have the sting of a butterfly. A Supporters Trust who do their job properly should ask the difficult questions and don’t allow yourself to be always fobbed off. Sandgaard will give us the usual B/S and CAST will believe it.

CAST presenting Sandgaard with a charter on Thursday night implies that they still want to work with him.

[seriouslyred]

Dec 14, 2022 9:40:46 GMT Mundell said:

Dec 14, 2022 3:53:48 GMT zenga said:

Until the point where a club is self-sustainable, "not spending a huge amount" remains wishful thinking if an owner has to pony up 5-10 million each year just to keep the club afloat. And that is before player acquisitions. Owners see that as 'spending', fans see that as something that comes with the territory. I'm still convinced that the bubble will eventually burst, as there are more clubs needing a good owner willing to spend that cash than there are good owners available. 

My point being, no matter who the new owner is, he/she/them will have to spend a significant amount of money.

I completely agree zenga In the Trust’s constitution it says the following, 

“The Society’s purpose is to be the vehicle through which a healthy, balanced and constructive relationship between the Club and its supporters and the communities it serves is encouraged and developed.”

There has been precious little evidence of any real attempt to do this. Holding meetings to press an agenda doesn’t qualify. The following objective gives the game away though, 

“achieving the greatest possible supporter and community influence in the running and ownership of the Club”

What is an owner supposed to make of that? As I said above, at no point has the Trust engaged seriously in the existential challenge of funding. The club could become sustainable or fan owned. There are clubs in the EFL that operate at break even or close to it and most of them are less well supported than Charlton. There is a problem though. None of them are likely to challenge for promotion to the Championship and therein lies the trade off. You can’t have your cake and eat it. 

There was a constructive dialogue from March 2013 - a few months after the formation of CASTrust (after securing 300 members in first four months) until G21 formed shortly after Powell was sacked.

During that time the club and Trust chose FFP and ACV as two themed campaigns on wh8ch to collaborate. FFP to explain the rules and how they were in our interest as they limited excessive losses / subsidies. And ACV as a way to attract fans as well as put in place a somewhat limited restriction on selling The Valley.

In answer to some other comments activities such as Q&A, articles and surveys were all planned and executed so as to explain the financial landscape as well as promote the Trust AND a sensible financial framework where sustainability was key.

G21 and outspoken critism of Duchatelet for what was a sound footballing decision essentially killed the collaboration effort and Trust membership then stuck at c.1,000 after having grown by 200 a quarter for five quarters in a row.

Two years later in 2016 the Trust board took the extraordinary step of putting that clause you mention to a vote. They effectively tore up the concept of a constructive relationship with CAFC and made themselves indistinguishable from CARD / G21. They even declined to meet two main board directors and shortly after the Trust chair insulted the manager on the eve of our promotion season, whilst VotV talked of calamity, disastrous squad etc. etc.

Ultimately sustainability will come from realising £5M+ of player sales per season as well as an uplift in commercial income. But that will only ever happen with technical excellence at the Academy and first team management AND a healthy acceptance of who CAFC are.

Alternatively, downsizing to bog standard League 1 budgets but in my opinion that managed decline accelerates the sunset.

[Deleted]

revilo reamsofverse

Great Tweet by lifelong Charlton fan @crimp_it - can you post it on here pls so ITTV members can see it ?

Sums up perfectly the harsh ultimatum that CAST needs to give Sandgaard on Thursday night.

[revilo]