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Post by elfsborgfranboras on Aug 25, 2019 13:30:01 GMT
Indeed. Dreisden has shown us that. Has he? I was led to believe he was just the link between Steve Gallen and Roland Duchâtelet in terms of player acquisition. Nothing to do with in game statistics. Gallen is answerable to him.
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Post by elfsborgfranboras on Aug 25, 2019 13:33:35 GMT
As ever the noise from the luddites, Royston and Elfs drowns out the discussion, which one supposes is the purpose. The point is that Brentford are playing well, had 70% of the possession and have clearly built a nifty side. But they've sold their top striker Maupay and failed to replace him. Their analytical approach required hard cash to be spent in the last window. Thus injuries, transfers and luck at games all changes the outcome. But here's the thing: if one took these stats and mapped them to wage bill or transfer spend, then one might see a pattern emerge? And see CAFC as an outlier with the lowest wage bill but a decent set of stats. In other words it hasn't taken millions in transfers and wages to bring us to this point. So what will it take in January to take us to the next level? Another stat that Royston and Elfs will appreciate is that the number of Charlton fans going compared to the first three games last season is up by 6,500 to 15,000. So much for talk of the destruction of CAFC! But back on topic, the stats show that if Taylor (and Gallagher) loses form or suffers injury then the results will dip as goals dry up - we are in second because of Taylor's precision - he's worth a lot more than £4M to CAFC. Fascinating.
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sardonic
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Post by sardonic on Aug 25, 2019 13:34:00 GMT
Has he? I was led to believe he was just the link between Steve Gallen and Roland Duchâtelet in terms of player acquisition. Nothing to do with in game statistics. Gallen is answerable to him. I don’t think he is “answerable” but they discuss transfers as Driesden is the link to Duchâtelet who finances the transfer.
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Post by elfsborgfranboras on Aug 25, 2019 13:35:34 GMT
Gallen is answerable to him. I don’t think he is “answerable” but they discuss transfers as Driesden is the link to Duchâtelet who finances the transfer. I bet Gallen loves that. What is your opinion of Driesden being in this position?
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sardonic
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Post by sardonic on Aug 25, 2019 13:46:25 GMT
I don’t think he is “answerable” but they discuss transfers as Driesden is the link to Duchâtelet who finances the transfer. I bet Gallen loves that. What is your opinion of Driesden being in this position? Don’t know him, never met him. If Steve gallen and Lee Boywer feel they can work with him then that’s all I need to know. I don’t think he affected any transfers this summer did he?
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Post by seriouslyred on Aug 25, 2019 13:51:10 GMT
I bet Gallen loves that. What is your opinion of Driesden being in this position? Don’t know him, never met him. If Steve gallen and Lee Boywer feel they can work with him then that’s all I need to know. I don’t think he affected any transfers this summer did he? They explained to fans that they work with him because that's the system and to refuse to work with him is not going to end well. The question is whether this has caused any issues in terms of recruiting talent? Our performances throughout 2019 would suggest not.
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Post by cafc2002 on Aug 25, 2019 13:51:50 GMT
I bet Gallen loves that. What is your opinion of Driesden being in this position? Don’t know him, never met him. If Steve gallen and Lee Boywer feel they can work with him then that’s all I need to know. I don’t think he affected any transfers this summer did he? More bullshit I think, I'd be very surprised is the little oink has anything to do with transfers anymore, personally dont think Bowyer or Gallen would stand for it.
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Post by rationaladdick on Aug 25, 2019 15:56:26 GMT
SeriouslyRed, thanks for that! Football fans are the last fans in any major sport who disregard statistical analysis, while the rest of the world has embraced them because they give great insights to the game. I feel we are punching above our weight and am just trying to enjoy the ride while it lasts. At the start of the season I would have been elated for 10th, where EG places us. Now, I would love to get us in the playoffs because I think our teamwork might carry us all the way if we did. But when I actually LOOK at how we are playing I feel like we are more of a mid-table team and EG (as well as shots on goal) is pointing that out. EG is considered the most important statistic in football because over the long-term, it is fairly predictive. No one would use it if it wasn't. Please keep posting articles likes this when you find them!
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Post by elfsborgfranboras on Aug 25, 2019 16:06:07 GMT
I bet Gallen loves that. What is your opinion of Driesden being in this position? Don’t know him, never met him. If Steve gallen and Lee Boywer feel they can work with him then that’s all I need to know. I don’t think he affected any transfers this summer did he? You come out with this knowing full well his 'experience'. Be ashamed.
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Post by elfsborgfranboras on Aug 25, 2019 16:07:14 GMT
SeriouslyRed, thanks for that! Football fans are the last fans in any major sport who disregard statistical analysis, while the rest of the world has embraced them because they give great insights to the game. I feel we are punching above our weight and am just trying to enjoy the ride while it lasts. At the start of the season I would have been elated for 10th, where EG places us. Now, I would love to get us in the playoffs because I think our teamwork might carry us all the way if we did. But when I actually LOOK at how we are playing I feel like we are more of a mid-table team and EG (as well as shots on goal) is pointing that out. EG is considered the most important statistic in football because over the long-term, it is fairly predictive. No one would use it if it wasn't. Please keep posting articles likes this when you find them! Laughable.
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Post by aaronaldo on Aug 25, 2019 16:22:17 GMT
SeriouslyRed, thanks for that! Football fans are the last fans in any major sport who disregard statistical analysis, while the rest of the world has embraced them because they give great insights to the game. I feel we are punching above our weight and am just trying to enjoy the ride while it lasts. At the start of the season I would have been elated for 10th, where EG places us. Now, I would love to get us in the playoffs because I think our teamwork might carry us all the way if we did. But when I actually LOOK at how we are playing I feel like we are more of a mid-table team and EG (as well as shots on goal) is pointing that out. EG is considered the most important statistic in football because over the long-term, it is fairly predictive. No one would use it if it wasn't. Please keep posting articles likes this when you find them! Laughable. I can only assume you’re referring to yours and Royston's posts.
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Post by elfsborgfranboras on Aug 25, 2019 16:25:48 GMT
I can only assume you’re referring to yours and Royston's posts. 'A' word.
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Post by oldred on Aug 25, 2019 16:41:32 GMT
I can only assume you’re referring to yours and Royston's posts. 'A' word. aaronaldo ?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 16:54:21 GMT
Elfs I love you, I trust that you know that. And it's Sunday evening, which is traditionally a time when some stuff gets posted that we look back on the following morning and think that wasn't such a great idea. I've done that myself many times. But are you really helping your case (and Royston's) by nibbling away at threads like this? It's like you're trying to get banned again just to relieve that listless Sunday boredom that comes over many of us. You'll probably regret it in the morning, and I expect it will be ages before you're allowed back on here again. Granted you and I both didn't know the seriousness of this this earlier but Reams is having a rotten time healthwise. We all wish him well, so can we try together to relieve just one of his minor headaches for a while? I'm not your mum, so feel free to ignore this. I just think it would be a shame if you get kicked out again. The team is doing well, folks in general are enjoying feeling good about things for a change and the sun is out. It's even a Bank holiday tomorrow. C'mon, what do you say?
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Post by elfsborgfranboras on Aug 25, 2019 17:03:48 GMT
Elfs I love you, I trust that you know that. And it's Sunday evening, which is traditionally a time when some stuff gets posted that we look back on the following morning and think that wasn't such a great idea. I've done that myself many times. But are you really helping your case (and Royston's) by nibbling away at threads like this? It's like you're trying to get banned again just to relieve that listless Sunday boredom that comes over many of us. You'll probably regret it in the morning, and I expect it will be ages before you're allowed back on here again. Granted you and I both didn't know the seriousness of this this earlier but Reams is having a rotten time healthwise. We all wish him well, so can we try together to relieve just one of his minor headaches for a while? I'm not your mum, so feel free to ignore this. I just think it would be a shame if you get kicked out again. The team is doing well, folks in general are enjoying feeling good about things for a change and the sun is out. It's even a Bank holiday tomorrow. C'mon, what do you say? Sir Lardiman, I have an alternative view that perhaps we both understand together. 606 would not put another view on death row. RIP Elf
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 17:21:15 GMT
Sir Lardiman, I have an alternative view that perhaps we both understand together. 606 would not put another view on death row. RIP Elf No offence intended. Just didn't want to see you cop another ban. Not asking you to change your views... hey ho.
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Post by elfsborgfranboras on Aug 25, 2019 17:28:51 GMT
Sir Lardiman, I have an alternative view that perhaps we both understand together. 606 would not put another view on death row. RIP Elf No offence intended. Just didn't want to see you cop another ban. Not asking you to change your views... hey ho. Nothing taken mate.
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sardonic
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Post by sardonic on Aug 25, 2019 20:03:05 GMT
Don’t know him, never met him. If Steve gallen and Lee Boywer feel they can work with him then that’s all I need to know. I don’t think he affected any transfers this summer did he? You come out with this knowing full well his 'experience'. Be ashamed. Be ashamed because you tell me to be? No thanks id rather continue to be open minded and see people for what I see rather than what people tell me to!
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Post by elfsborgfranboras on Aug 25, 2019 20:09:01 GMT
You come out with this knowing full well his 'experience'. Be ashamed. Be ashamed because you tell me to be? No thanks id rather continue to be open minded and see people for what I see rather than what people tell me to! Easy cop out with your non answer to Driesen.
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sardonic
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Post by sardonic on Aug 25, 2019 20:53:42 GMT
Be ashamed because you tell me to be? No thanks id rather continue to be open minded and see people for what I see rather than what people tell me to! Easy cop out with your non answer to Driesen. No a non answer would be ignorance which in the light of it is probably what you deserve, but I’m giving you some credit with an answer. You might not agree or like it but it is definitely not a non answer. I can provide these in future if you so wish.
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Post by jonkool on Aug 25, 2019 21:36:19 GMT
Has he? I was led to believe he was just the link between Steve Gallen and Roland Duchâtelet in terms of player acquisition. Nothing to do with in game statistics. Gallen is answerable to him. I understand why you mentioned that Steve is answerable to the young man but I’m not sure that in reality this is occurring. I read/heard the interview that Steve gave late last season to the club shown on Valley Pass about how he has the best job he’s ever had in football even better than when he was appointed temporary manager at his club QPR. He gave the reason for this as being effectively our director of football where he is responsible for identifying targets then negotiating terms and contracts. The best part was working with Bows who he spoke with every day. I read into this that he and Bows identified targets within a budgetary constraint given by the owner. However, deals did have to be referred to the young man but it was more of a rubber stamping exercise to ensure that RD was aware of the deal. I also feel that this has been confirmed by Bows insisting that he agreed the sale of Anfernee on football grounds which to me read that Bows made the deal to fund the arrivals of all the players who signed on the Wednesday and Thursday leading up to the closure of the window. So technically the young man authorises acquisitions and sales but in reality he’s just the guy who lets RD know 2hat Steve and Bows are doing within the budget constraints 👍
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Post by Mundell on Aug 25, 2019 22:03:16 GMT
I can highly recommend “Football Hackers: The Science and Art of a Data Revolution” by Christoph Biermann. In my view, it’s a must read for anyone who really wants to understand what’s going on with the collection and analysis of data in football. It’s very well written and comprehensive. I’m sure the book will appeal to posters like sardonic rationaladdick jonkool and seriouslyred , for example. Others may be more skeptical or simply less interested. However, there is no doubt that football is beginning to change and to embrace the technology now available. Clubs that remain rooted in the past will get left behind. Fans can ignore what’s going on if they wish. That’s their prerogative, of course, but what many clubs are now doing can’t simply be dismissed. Just like VAR, like it or lump it, a more thoughtful, analytical and evidence driven approach to football management is here to stay.
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Post by overthetop on Aug 26, 2019 8:13:14 GMT
I remember John Beck at Cambridge who got them to two successive promotions by utilising the statistic of the further up the pitch you get, the more chance you have of scoring a goal.
They were the most boring side I've ever had the pleasure of watching as they just kicked the ball into touch as far away from their own goal as they possibly could.
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Post by Mundell on Aug 26, 2019 9:45:42 GMT
John Beck based his strategy on analysis by Charles Reep. Reep is often viewed as the architect of the long-ball game. Turns out Reep’s analysis was flawed. He’d misunderstood his own data.
I doubt there’s a club anywhere in the world that is as into data and analysis as Brentford and sister club Midtjylland. Both have significantly out punched their weight in recent seasons. And I thought Brentford played very attractive football on Saturday.
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Post by seriouslyred on Aug 26, 2019 10:18:20 GMT
^^^^^^^^ Kevin, Are you aware that we are playing in a higher league, against clubs that bring far more away fans ? On average an extra 2,000 ....remember when Fleetwood brought 95 to the Valley? Yes, that was one of the first three games last season where the average away following was about 500 whereas it's now more like 2,000. The point is that the number of Charlton fans is on average up by 6,500 to make an overall increase of 8,000 per game - all we needed was promotion back to the Championship. The areas behind the goal are sold out and rocking every time and that's down to what Bowyer, Gallen and JJ have done with recruitment, training, player development and the attitude at the club. We are back to where we were five years ago, and one could argue that we are actually in a better place? We've had three top half Championship finishes in 13 years - this could be our fourth?
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Post by addicktedrichard on Aug 26, 2019 11:56:16 GMT
Think this is really good thread,
I too have read Hackers and the Driesden model of Video scouts is the model used by Brentford. Most of their players Saturday came from European leagues
My criticism is not the model but the execution of it.
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Post by jonkool on Aug 26, 2019 11:57:09 GMT
^^^^^^^^ Kevin, Are you aware that we are playing in a higher league, against clubs that bring far more away fans ? On average an extra 2,000 ....remember when Fleetwood brought 95 to the Valley? Yes, that was one of the first three games last season where the average away following was about 500 whereas it's now more like 2,000. The point is that the number of Charlton fans is on average up by 6,500 to make an overall increase of 8,000 per game - all we needed was promotion back to the Championship. The areas behind the goal are sold out and rocking every time and that's down to what Bowyer, Gallen and JJ have done with recruitment, training, player development and the attitude at the club. We are back to where we were five years ago, and one could argue that we are actually in a better place? We've had three top half Championship finishes in 13 years - this could be our fourth? Yes I recall the lack of away fans at home to Fleetwood but the weird thing is that there were huge amount of plod and more than Saturday. I asked a young WPC after Fleetwood who makes the decisions on policing and she responded ‘the police intelligence unit’ to which I replied ‘surely that’s a contradiction of terms’. She gave me an old fashioned look but then smiled 😉
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Post by zenga on Aug 26, 2019 12:44:56 GMT
I can highly recommend “Football Hackers: The Science and Art of a Data Revolution” by Christoph Biermann. In my view, it’s a must read for anyone who really wants to understand what’s going on with the collection and analysis of data in football. It’s very well written and comprehensive. I’m sure the book will appeal to posters like sardonic rationaladdick jonkool and seriouslyred , for example. Others may be more skeptical or simply less interested. However, there is no doubt that football is beginning to change and to embrace the technology now available. Clubs that remain rooted in the past will get left behind. Fans can ignore what’s going on if they wish. That’s their prerogative, of course, but what many clubs are now doing can’t simply be dismissed. Just like VAR, like it or lump it, a more thoughtful, analytical and evidence driven approach to football management is here to stay. I have no doubt that mass data has it's advantages: e.g. you concede more goals in the last 20 minutes and that correlates with less sprints / meters ran; then it's obviously useful. What many data analysts and statisticians fail to recognize is to incorporate what I call the genius factor: i.e. that a lot of football games (no matter the tier) are decided by special skills that can't be quantified, e.g. the game deciding dribbles from Ronaldinho, Neymar, Messi, Ibrahimovic and Hazard are totally different. Again every team, whether it's PL or Beer League, has players that can make the difference, and if you don't have them your are screwed. For me the basics of football are very simple and no big data will change that: those who can't play football should run till they nearly drop dead to conquer the ball, to then hand it over as fast and as simple as possible to the players who can play football. And that even applies to Man City or Barcelona. But recently coaches and analysts are trying to make the game way more complicated than it is; while statistics are quite often just confirming the obvious.
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Post by rationaladdick on Aug 26, 2019 15:19:54 GMT
I can highly recommend “Football Hackers: The Science and Art of a Data Revolution” by Christoph Biermann. In my view, it’s a must read for anyone who really wants to understand what’s going on with the collection and analysis of data in football. It’s very well written and comprehensive. I’m sure the book will appeal to posters like sardonic rationaladdick jonkool and seriouslyred , for example. Others may be more skeptical or simply less interested. However, there is no doubt that football is beginning to change and to embrace the technology now available. Clubs that remain rooted in the past will get left behind. Fans can ignore what’s going on if they wish. That’s their prerogative, of course, but what many clubs are now doing can’t simply be dismissed. Just like VAR, like it or lump it, a more thoughtful, analytical and evidence driven approach to football management is here to stay. Clubs would not be spending millions of dollars on OPTA and other such firms unless it was working. It is also another reason more English clubs are (finally) taking more of the transfer market decisions from managers and giving it to DoF or those like Gallen... because too many managers don’t like using analysis and stats. Other leagues figured this out some time ago and England is pulling up the rear on this front but finally seeing the light. Any manager who does not at least utilise these tools to a modest degree will be extinct soon.
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Post by coloradocafc on Aug 26, 2019 15:36:02 GMT
I've followed analytics in baseball for quite some time. I think this way of thinking has mostly changed the game for the better. It's really aided player selection and development, for instance. One think that most folks didn't appreciate in that sport is that it would change the way the game is played, and not always for the better. Baseball is struggling with that right now. Teams and players are performing at an insanely high level. The game isn't nearly as entertaining as it was in previous decades, though.
I guess these things go in cycles.
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