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Post by reamsofverse on Jan 12, 2019 1:38:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 5:20:56 GMT
I agree this is not what we want to see in the English game.
Somebody has said it might be a 'cultural thing' as in something that goes on routinely in some other parts of the world.
Even if that is so, we have had many managers from all around the world plying their trade in the English game for decades now. The vast majority of them seem to have been able to understand and adapt to the way we do things here - to know what is acceptable and what is not - even if they have come from footballing cultures where things like routinely spying on your opponent's training sessions just before you play them is OK.
Bielsa has admitted responsibility, but his claim that Leeds have done this "publicly" is not credible.
If this was being done openly why were people hiding in bushes rather than standing in the open? Why didn't Leeds United tell opponents in advance that they would be sending their employees to watch training sessions?
It may not be illegal, but it was being done covertly because it is unsporting and shameful.
Leeds supporters might want to let Mr Bielsa know what they think about the way he has behaved.
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Post by hairyhotdog on Jan 12, 2019 7:19:15 GMT
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Post by Mundell on Jan 12, 2019 10:04:01 GMT
Be interesting to see whether Bielsa now stops this practice voluntarily and also whether the EFL take any action.
Frank Lampard was absolutely right when he spoke about culture. Behaviours which are abhorrent to us, such as diving (though it’s less clear that’s still the case) are sometimes widely accepted elsewhere where the ‘crime’ is not doing it (whatever it is), but being caught. I’m sure that’s the case here. Lampard is also right though when he says that Bielsa should adapt to the culture here, not continue to behave as he might have elsewhere.
Anyway, this incident reminded me of an outstanding book called the ‘Italian Job’ by Gianluca Vialli and Gabriele Marcotti. It’s a comparative analysis of English and Italian football and argues that many of the differences between the way the game is played in the two countries are rooted in the respective cultures. Vialli is entirely non-judgemental in his analysis and reflections and the result is one of the most interesting and enjoyable books about football I’ve read.
PS I know that Bielsa is Argentinian not Italian!!
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Post by jonkool on Jan 12, 2019 10:33:33 GMT
He broke no EFL or FA rules other than a sweeping ‘respect your opponents’ rule which means whatever you want it to read.
Knowing the blazers as we do a reprimand will be the naximum censure.
The more interesting thing is whether he will continue with this practise or will he formally admit to his error of judgement.
To my mind I cannot see what he expected to gain by it as it’s not as though clubs are dreaming up special
plays unlike the NFL 👍
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survivor
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Post by survivor on Jan 12, 2019 11:32:21 GMT
Cannot see the point, but fair play to him for not hiding.
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Post by garrynelson on Jan 12, 2019 13:10:07 GMT
I was more disgusted by the Leeds keeper kicking the Derby full back in the face when collecting a ball - replays showed him looking right at him when he brought his boot up to the side of his head. Disgusting!
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Post by Nick on Jan 12, 2019 13:37:12 GMT
I imagine this is rife in football in one way or another. Leeds just got caught. Can’t see why there’s so much outrage about it.
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Post by oldred on Jan 12, 2019 13:48:26 GMT
It certainly is unethical, but it’s a strange one for me to be honest , the covert spying operation. I wonder if any other clubs do it also .
I’m just wondering how much benefit they achieve by it , over and above the normal practice of managers and coaches , watching future apponents in live matches or videos .
It will be interesting to see if any action is taken , other than a reprimand .
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 14:00:10 GMT
I initially heard it was a drone.
The coach also says he has done it for years so assumedly that includes every opponent this season.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 21:20:55 GMT
Walking on a public footpath Hmmmmmm that is a real crime Get your facts right skip Dont make a fool of yourself like you do on other threads did you back shrewsbury to win today by the way |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 21:22:43 GMT
I was more disgusted by the Leeds keeper kicking the Derby full back in the face when collecting a ball - replays showed him looking right at him when he brought his boot up to the side of his head. Disgusting! And lee bowyer biting a innocent person . |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 22:39:38 GMT
Walking on a public footpath Hmmmmmm that is a real crime Get your facts right skip Dont make a fool of yourself like you do on other threads did you back shrewsbury to win today by the way Oh dear - which part of the Leeds boss admiting it did you miss ? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 23:11:42 GMT
Walking on a public footpath Hmmmmmm that is a real crime Get your facts right skip Dont make a fool of yourself like you do on other threads did you back shrewsbury to win today by the way Oh dear - which part of the Leeds boss admiting it did you miss ? Did not miss one bit son what is your point Bielsa has done nothing wrong unlike some english managers who like a bung |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 23:27:37 GMT
I agree this is not what we want to see in the English game. Somebody has said it might be a 'cultural thing' as in something that goes on routinely in some other parts of the world. Even if that is so, we have had many managers from all around the world plying their trade in the English game for decades now. The vast majority of them seem to have been able to understand and adapt to the way we do things here - to know what is acceptable and what is not - even if they have come from footballing cultures where things like routinely spying on your opponent's training sessions just before you play them is OK. Bielsa has admitted responsibility, but his claim that Leeds have done this "publicly" is not credible. If this was being done openly why were people hiding in bushes rather than standing in the open? Why didn't Leeds United tell opponents in advance that they would be sending their employees to watch training sessions? It may not be illegal, but it was being done covertly because it is unsporting and shameful. Leeds supporters might want to let Mr Bielsa know what they think about the way he has behaved. Ffs you melt the guy is trying to get the best result for his team looking at Derby training fkin hell what a crime it goes on Bielsa had admitted it the guy is a fkin genius just ask Pep |
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Post by Mundell on Jan 13, 2019 8:31:37 GMT
Genius or not, it appears that Leeds have asked Bielsa to apologise while reminding him of the importance the club attaches to integrity and honesty. This article in the Sunday Times sums the situation up quite nicely. |
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Post by Mundell on Jan 17, 2019 21:34:39 GMT
Two more articles in the Times today. The first, linked here, covers Bielsa’s press conference yesterday during which he confessed to ‘spying’ on all of Leeds’ opponents and, apparently, wowed reporters with a transparent, in depth and fascinating account of the work he does pre match on Leeds’ next opponents. It’s an interesting read. Second, in this next article Henry Winter gives his view. This story isn’t going to lie down without a fight. Interesting what we Brits get excited about. This is not about rights or wrongs, it’s about norms of behaviour or culture. |
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Post by seriouslyred on Jan 17, 2019 21:37:24 GMT
Thanks Mundell - will read the links once phone charged but first a simple question: given Bowyer's dirty Leeds pedigree, would we object if he did whatever it takes to secure promotion? |
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Post by Mundell on Jan 17, 2019 21:56:33 GMT
seriouslyredMy personal view is that it’s important to respect the culture of the society or organisation you’re part of. In the ‘old days’ batsmen in cricket used to walk when they’d nicked it. I was a ‘walker’, therefore, and would have been annoyed with anyone who didn’t. I would not want Lee Bowyer to do ‘whatever it takes’ if that meant behaving unethically or compromising football’s values. For example, if we’d qualified for the playoffs prior to our last game but had opponents who needed a win to survive at the expense of another club, I would not want him to play a Second XI and make no real attempt to win the game. Just my perspective, but I think it’s important to have values and live by them.
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survivor
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Post by survivor on Jan 18, 2019 7:21:42 GMT
I was more disgusted by the Leeds keeper kicking the Derby full back in the face when collecting a ball - replays showed him looking right at him when he brought his boot up to the side of his head. Disgusting! And lee bowyer biting a innocent person . This is a football forum fella, not a school playground. |
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Post by tonyshootersbull on Jan 18, 2019 9:04:18 GMT
Bowyer thing was years ago .get over it im sure heard saying people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones
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Post by aaronaldo on Jan 18, 2019 11:55:57 GMT
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Post by leftbehind on Jan 18, 2019 13:39:00 GMT
Cant see the issue TBH, sure its been common practice for years, same as sending scouts and trainers to watch the opposition before you play them
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2019 13:52:56 GMT
Cant see the issue TBH, sure its been common practice for years, same as sending scouts and trainers to watch the opposition before you play them I dont think it is common practice. Also the difference between hiding in a bush and going to a game is fairly clear. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2019 19:56:13 GMT
Cant see the issue TBH, sure its been common practice for years, same as sending scouts and trainers to watch the opposition before you play them I dont think it is common practice. Also the difference between hiding in a bush and going to a game is fairly clear. Hiding in a Bush dont you get it it was a public footpath and good on him he knew more about Derby than that fat tosser lampard knew about his home team Bielsa is a legend just ask Pep Poch and Simone |
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Major
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Post by Major on Jan 18, 2019 22:00:44 GMT
Manchester City boss Pep Guardiola, who has previously said his admiration for Bielsa is "huge", defended the Argentine's actions at his own news conference on Friday.
Guardiola said that during his time managing German giants Bayern Munich people routinely watched the team train from any vantage point they could find.
"My respect remains the same. He was clear in his statement. I admired what he did in the past, why should I change my opinion?" the former Barcelona boss said.
"In all the countries I have been before, everybody does it.
"When we were training at Bayern Munich there were people in the little mountains with cameras and the opponent was watching what we did. Everybody did it.
"It is the culture of the clubs. It was part of the club. Not because you said 'you have to do it'. It is the culture."
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Bielsa 'welcome' to watch Stoke train
Bielsa also said on Wednesday that because Stoke boss Nathan Jones had only been appointed last week, he and his staff had watched the 26 games played by his previous club Luton Town.
When asked about Bielsa's approach, Jones said the analysis of teams was "not revolutionary".
"I would love to sit down and chat with Marcelo because he is a very good football person. I would invite him down to watch our training sessions if he wanted to come down here," Jones said.
"What he does is thorough and it's good work but we do that. We gather information, watch clips and I spend hours with the analysts. It's not revolutionary, it's probably just the first time someone has done a presentation on it."
#justsaying
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2019 22:36:55 GMT
Bielsa puts the likes of hughes,pardew,bruce,oneill,pearce,giggs hodgson,pullis,moyes,warnock,alydyce,to fkin shame.
Hes turned less than average players in to a team playing like man city
Thank god we have this guy hopefully more managers will take note and they may end up like pep or poch
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Major
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Post by Major on Jan 19, 2019 1:32:51 GMT
Bielsa puts the likes of hughes,pardew,bruce,oneill,pearce,giggs hodgson,pullis,moyes,warnock,alydyce,to fkin shame. Hes turned less than average players in to a team playing like man city Thank god we have this guy hopefully more managers will take note and they may end up like pep or poch My Mum could do better than Pardew. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2019 9:33:05 GMT
Bielsa puts the likes of hughes,pardew,bruce,oneill,pearce,giggs hodgson,pullis,moyes,warnock,alydyce,to fkin shame. Hes turned less than average players in to a team playing like man city Thank god we have this guy hopefully more managers will take note and they may end up like pep or poch My Mum could do better than Pardew. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 |
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