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Post by weststandfruitloop on Apr 14, 2024 12:54:19 GMT
We still within the £13m allowed from owner investment per season. The £13m a season limit only applies in the Championship (which operates FFP rules). In L1 & L2 there is no limit to how much owners can invest/inject. That's why it makes sense to build a 'Championship-ready' squad in L1 when you have more financial freedom to do so (which Ipswich, for example, did to good effect last season). |
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Post by Occam’s Razor on Apr 15, 2024 10:31:59 GMT
It’s interesting to compare the EOY accounts of the three South London clubs (source - Kieron Maguire).
It’s revealing, and in some ways it’s quite sad to see how far down the food chain we have fallen.
Revenue:
Palace £180m
Millwall £19.3m
CAFC £9.8m
Wages:
Palace £130m
Millwall £22.6m
CAFC 10.3m
Annual Losses:
Palace £20m
Millwall £13.7m
CAFC 9.9m
Player purchases:
Palace £56m
Millwall £4m
CAFC 0.1m (😂)
Player sales:
Palace £0.3m
Millwall £2.7m
CAFC £0.5m
You can argue about the right and wrongs of each club and how they are run, but what is undeniable based on last years accounts for the three clubs is just how much Charlton has shrunk as a club.
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Post by manikin on Apr 15, 2024 10:50:36 GMT
It’s interesting to compare the EOY accounts of the three South London clubs (source - Kieron Maguire). It’s revealing, and in some ways it’s quite sad to see how far down the food chain we have fallen. Revenue: Palace £180m Millwall £19.3m CAFC £9.8m Wages: Palace £130m Millwall £22.6m CAFC 10.3m Annual Losses: Palace £20m Millwall £13.7m CAFC 9.9m Player purchases: Palace £56m Millwall £4m CAFC 0.1m (😂) Player sales: Palace £0.3m Millwall £2.7m CAFC £0.5m You can argue about the right and wrongs of each club and how they are run, but what is undeniable based on last years accounts for the three clubs is just how much Charlton has shrunk as a club. We've shrunk as a club because of the time we've spent in this bloody awful division. The sooner we get back to the Championship and hopefully beyond, the sooner we'll get back on an even keel. The owners and management must really step up to the plate this summer. |
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Post by Mundell on Apr 15, 2024 11:41:53 GMT
It’s interesting to compare the EOY accounts of the three South London clubs (source - Kieron Maguire). It’s revealing, and in some ways it’s quite sad to see how far down the food chain we have fallen. Revenue: Palace £180m Millwall £19.3m CAFC £9.8m Wages: Palace £130m Millwall £22.6m CAFC 10.3m Annual Losses: Palace £20m Millwall £13.7m CAFC 9.9m Player purchases: Palace £56m Millwall £4m CAFC 0.1m (😂) Player sales: Palace £0.3m Millwall £2.7m CAFC £0.5m You can argue about the right and wrongs of each club and how they are run, but what is undeniable based on last years accounts for the three clubs is just how much Charlton has shrunk as a club. What is undeniable is that we’re playing in League One, Millwall in the Championship and Palace in the Premier League. We didn’t need the EOY accounts to tell us that. What’s most significant about these sets of accounts is that they tell us how much it is costing Millwall’s owners, year in year out, simply to survive in the Championship and with no real prospect of making it to the Premier League. At least not without spending even more money or by getting very lucky. Throwing £10m plus down a black hole, each and every season, simply to stand still is not much fun and it’s that reality, once it dawned on him (in part due to the introduction in the Championship of the absurdly named Profitability and Sustainability regime) which turned off Roland Duchatelet. This financial nightmare represented an existential threat to the club. Why would anyone sensible want to own us? ESI were con artists and Thomas Sandgaard a delusional narcissist. Charlie Methven solved that conundrum by finding a consortium of investors and selling them on the expectation that the financial rules of the game in the Championship are about to change with the likely introduction of UEFA’s Squad Cost Control Ratio (SCCR). If Methven is right this is a gamechanger for the club. The game of Snakes and Ladders, which we all believe is fundamental to the fabric of the football pyramid in the English game, will continue, but the SCCR regime will make the Ladder less challenging to climb and the process less financially ruinous. There is a thread explaining why. |
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Post by Occam’s Razor on Apr 15, 2024 12:03:56 GMT
That’s one way of looking at it Mundell …I don’t agree with you. There’s no point in revisiting the argument about ambition / speculate to accumulate, as we have very different views on that. I’d merely point out that ambition minimalism wasn’t what saw CAFC become the largest South London club up until fairly recent. What is interesting in comparing us to Millwall is that even though they have twice our revenue, and twice our wage bill, they don’t have twice our losses, which you might expect. Their attendances are also relatively modest by Championship standards. That draws the logical conclusion that either MFC is being well run or CAFC being poorly run, or more likely a mixture of both. |
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Post by Occam’s Razor on Apr 15, 2024 12:07:24 GMT
PS MundellThrowing “money down the black hole” as you put it, is another Straw Man. We have owners currently tossing £800,000 a month down the toilet for us to stagnate at 16th in L1. Absolutely nothing to be proud of there. And with respect, you have absolutely no way of knowing that Millwall will not reach the Premier League. You are being a poobah again. You’d have said the same about Luton Town 🙄 |
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Post by seriouslyred on Apr 15, 2024 12:10:04 GMT
It’s interesting to compare the EOY accounts of the three South London clubs (source - Kieron Maguire). It’s revealing, and in some ways it’s quite sad to see how far down the food chain we have fallen. Revenue: Palace £180m Millwall £19.3m CAFC £9.8m Wages: Palace £130m Millwall £22.6m CAFC 10.3m Annual Losses: Palace £20m Millwall £13.7m CAFC 9.9m Player purchases: Palace £56m Millwall £4m CAFC 0.1m (😂) Player sales: Palace £0.3m Millwall £2.7m CAFC £0.5m You can argue about the right and wrongs of each club and how they are run, but what is undeniable based on last years accounts for the three clubs is just how much Charlton has shrunk as a club. What is undeniable is that we’re playing in League One, Millwall in the Championship and Palace in the Premier League. We didn’t need the EOY accounts to tell us that. What’s most significant about these sets of accounts is that they tell us how much it is costing Millwall’s owners, year in year out, simply to survive in the Championship and with no real prospect of making it to the Premier League. At least not without spending even more money or by getting very lucky. Throwing £10m plus down a black hole, each and every season, simply to stand still is not much fun and it’s that reality, once it dawned on him (in part due to the introduction in the Championship of the absurdly named Profitability and Sustainability regime) which turned off Roland Duchatelet. This financial nightmare represented an existential threat to the club. Why would anyone sensible want to own us? ESI were con artists and Thomas Sandgaard a delusional narcissist. Charlie Methven solved that conundrum by finding a consortium of investors and selling them on the expectation that the financial rules of the game in the Championship are about to change with the likely introduction of UEFA’s Squad Cost Control Ratio (SCCR). If Methven is right this is a gamechanger for the club. The game of Snakes and Ladders, which we all believe is fundamental to the fabric of the football pyramid in the English game, will continue, but the SCCR regime will make the Ladder less challenging to climb and the process less financially ruinous. There is a thread explaining why. A combination of a favourable settlement between EPL and EFL plus replacing the Championship "controls" with SCCR will yield a £30M turnover in the Championship AND an enterprise value of perhaps £35-45M. Quite how Ipswich were valued at £260M is unclear but if they secure promotion to the EPL then they're certainly worth that. All the more reason for CAFC owners to inject sufficient funds so as to enable CAFC to acquire five more quality players and really have a crack at promotion. There's absolutely no certainty that promotion will follow the acquisition of decent players. For instance we simply don't know how Nathan Jones will address the challenge. Ideally we will return to the top six - still losing nearly £1M a month but closer to rejoining the Championship AND overtaking Millwall. |
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Post by Occam’s Razor on Apr 15, 2024 12:13:52 GMT
Been said to you many, many times seriouslyred but “a top 6 finish in League 1” is about as much use as a one legged man in a bum kicking contest. |
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Post by Mundell on Apr 15, 2024 12:33:15 GMT
That’s one way of looking at it Mundell …I don’t agree with you. There’s no point in revisiting the argument about ambition / speculate to accumulate, as we have very different views on that. I’d merely point out that ambition minimalism wasn’t what saw CAFC become the largest South London club up until fairly recent. What is interesting in comparing us to Millwall is that even though they have twice our revenue, and twice our wage bill, they don’t have twice our losses, which you might expect. Their attendances are also relatively modest by Championship standards. That draws the logical conclusion that either MFC is being well run or CAFC being poorly run, or more likely a mixture of both. I get that you want to criticise the club and that these financials are a convenient stick to beat the SMT and previous managers and owners with. However, I was simply pointing out that the fact Millwall’s losses are bigger than ours shows that winning promotion to the Championship doesn’t help us financially. In fact it makes matters worse. If an owner then wants to have a realistic tilt at promotion to the Premier League they’d need to spend even more money. The Championship has been a financial graveyard. My point is that this has made the club fundamentally unattractive to any sensible owner and certainly to anyone who wants to have at least a decent chance of a return on the money they know they are going to need to invest if they acquire the club. It’s easy to spend someone else’s money, and or to criticise them if they don’t make better decisions than other clubs, but even if I personally had the money needed to “speculate to accumulate” I wouldn’t haven’t been remotely interested. GFP are clearly sensible and financially literate people so why are they involved therefore? It’s because they’ve been told by Charlie Methven that the rules of the game are about to change and that, in turn, this significantly reduces the financial risks involved in owning the club and competing in the Championship, when we get there. You probably aren’t remotely interested in any of this in which case fair enough, but it’s a mistake to assume that simply because someone disagrees with your ongoing narrative it follows that they have a different agenda. Exactly what are you disagreeing with me on this time by the way? |
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Post by surridgecobbler5 on Apr 15, 2024 12:50:28 GMT
Comparing the 2, the standout number is Millwall's revenue, given their ST sales and average Gates
One assumes TV Broadcasting is the major element unless they are selling masses of hospitality etc.
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Post by aaronaldo on Apr 15, 2024 12:56:13 GMT
Comparing the 2, the standout number is Millwall's revenue, given their ST sales and average Gates One assumes TV Broadcasting is the major element unless they are selling masses of hospitality etc. As you go up the leagues the % revenue from tickets is so much lower. I doubt it's their biggest income stream in the Champship, let alone the Prem. For us it is though as we are in League One. I don't think the comparison shows much at all other than the three different leagues and their revenue power. |
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Post by valley on Apr 15, 2024 12:58:29 GMT
Comparing the 2, the standout number is Millwall's revenue, given their ST sales and average Gates One assumes TV Broadcasting is the major element unless they are selling masses of hospitality etc. As you go up the leagues the % revenue from tickets is so much lower. I doubt it's their biggest income stream in the Champship, let alone the Prem. For us it is though as we are in League One. I don't think the comparison shows much at all other than the three different leagues and their revenue power. Millwall has lost more than £137 million since the Club started trading. Championship is the most brutal division in football with all 24 clubs losing money. |
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Post by valley on Apr 15, 2024 13:01:48 GMT
Comparing the 2, the standout number is Millwall's revenue, given their ST sales and average Gates One assumes TV Broadcasting is the major element unless they are selling masses of hospitality etc. Revenue £19.3m Wages £22.6m losses (pre player sales) £13.7m Player sales £2.7m Player purchases £4.0m JB has put an additional £17.0m into the club to balance the books. |
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Post by Mundell on Apr 15, 2024 15:06:09 GMT
Comparing the 2, the standout number is Millwall's revenue, given their ST sales and average Gates One assumes TV Broadcasting is the major element unless they are selling masses of hospitality etc. As you go up the leagues the % revenue from tickets is so much lower. I doubt it's their biggest income stream in the Champship, let alone the Prem. For us it is though as we are in League One. I don't think the comparison shows much at all other than the three different leagues and their revenue power. Exactly. Millwall’s accounts haven’t yet been uploaded to the Companies House website, but based on their accounts for the prior year, the breakdown is as follows, our numbers first, Ticketing and Match Day £5.0m v £5.8m TV and central awards et al £2.3m v £9.1m Commercial £1.5m v £3.7m Other £1.0m v £0.0m Total £9.8m v £18.6m I don’t know what ‘Other Income’ is but it might be a variant of what Millwall include in commercial. Even if that’s true though, as seriouslyred has often remarked, our commercial income has underperformed that of similar clubs for many years. That puzzling underperformance apart (and I’m sure that’s something Charlie Methven thinks he can fix - we’ll see if he can) these turnover numbers reflect the fact Millwall is in the Championship and we’re in League One. I’d expect our turnover to be higher than theirs if we were playing in the same division. |
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Post by seriouslyred on Apr 15, 2024 18:36:36 GMT
As you go up the leagues the % revenue from tickets is so much lower. I doubt it's their biggest income stream in the Champship, let alone the Prem. For us it is though as we are in League One. I don't think the comparison shows much at all other than the three different leagues and their revenue power. Exactly. Millwall’s accounts haven’t yet been uploaded to the Companies House website, but based on their accounts for the prior year, the breakdown is as follows, our numbers first, Ticketing and Match Day £5.0m v £5.8m TV and central awards et al £2.3m v £9.1m Commercial £1.5m v £3.7m Other £1.0m v £0.0m Total £9.8m v £18.6m I don’t know what ‘Other Income’ is but it might be a variant of what Millwall include in commercial. Even if that’s true though, as seriouslyred has often remarked, our commercial income has underperformed that of similar clubs for many years. That puzzling underperformance apart (and I’m sure that’s something Charlie Methven thinks he can fix - we’ll see if he can) these turnover numbers reflect the fact Millwall is in the Championship and we’re in League One. I’d expect our turnover to be higher than theirs if we were playing in the same division. The challenge for Methven, Sutherland and the fella from Sunderland is to take commercial revenue from £1.7M up to £5M+. That additional £3M would add a possible £2M to the playing budget. The challenge for the football mgt is to secure promotion back to the Championship. Sign five quality players is the ask And then coach and mold into a two points a game side. The challenge for fans participating in discussions about our club is to ignore the boys who cry wolf as well as those who wish to break contracts and sack players for a couple of poor performances. There's so much good information out there that it's puzzling that there are some who choose to ignore it and instead take an entitled approach to our club. After all the bluff and bullshit of ESI and Sandgaard why not have a rational discussion about what we need to do over the next six months? And the other challenge for fans is to buy tickets, merch and drinks for all those purchases will add to possibilities in January 2025. Leaving aside all of the numbers, what style of football will Jones choose and can they land the players to deliver? If that's executed well then our turnover will exceed Millwall for 2025/26! |
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Post by valley on Apr 16, 2024 17:43:31 GMT
We still within the £13m allowed from owner investment per season. The £13m a season limit only applies in the Championship (which operates FFP rules). In L1 & L2 there is no limit to how much owners can invest/inject. That's why it makes sense to build a 'Championship-ready' squad in L1 when you have more financial freedom to do so (which Ipswich, for example, did to good effect last season). No limit in the summer then. |
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Post by weststandfruitloop on Apr 16, 2024 18:15:08 GMT
The £13m a season limit only applies in the Championship (which operates FFP rules). In L1 & L2 there is no limit to how much owners can invest/inject. That's why it makes sense to build a 'Championship-ready' squad in L1 when you have more financial freedom to do so (which Ipswich, for example, did to good effect last season). No limit in the summer then. No, but I don't think we will (or should) spend a fortune in transfer fees tbh, given how many top quality free agents there are. My suspicion is something like... Three signings for a fee, adding up to between £1m and £2m (given that in January we had a £500k bid for JCH accepted and were in the bidding for Aaron Collins who went to Bolton for £750k this seems a reasonable war chest) Three free agent signings (of the Christian Walton/Lewis Bate level) Three young PL season loans (quality not quantity, a couple of potential JRS/Gallagher types are way more useful that half a dozen squad-filling cast-offs). ...and a lot more than nine being released, sold or paid off to make room for the above and have a smaller overall squad. |
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Post by valley on Apr 17, 2024 19:24:56 GMT
Something too look at once in the championship.
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Post by aaronaldo on Apr 18, 2024 8:21:46 GMT
Something too look at once in the championship. Hate the clickbait nature of that article. So misleading. Sounds as if he's saying they need to boost everyones wages to stand a chance. No, they will need to strengthen their squad. To do this, they will inevitably have to offer higher wages. As a finance expert, advocating "Quadrupling your wages" for every club promoted into the Championship is just mad. What happens if they get relegated and now have everyone on silly wages? |
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Post by Occam’s Razor on Apr 18, 2024 8:43:25 GMT
Something too look at once in the championship. Hate the clickbait nature of that article. So misleading. Sounds as if he's saying they need to boost everyone’s wages to stand a chance. No, they will need to strengthen their squad. To do this, they will inevitably have to offer higher wages. As a finance expert, advocating "Quadrupling your wages" for every club promoted into the Championship is just mad. What happens if they get relegated and now have everyone on silly wages? Whether we are like it or not - and we all know a pair who don’t - in English football these days you have to speculate to accumulate. Thats not about letting rip or showing a sense of entitlement, but more about any owner showing an awareness that 1. You get what you pay for in football and 2. Only the most geekiest of fans are willing to sit patiently for decades while their club stagnates in mid table mediocrity. It’s a recognition that for 99% of fans, 90 minutes on a Saturday afternoon isn’t about escaping from the wife, but a wish to be entertained by quality footballers. |
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Post by kings hill addick on Apr 19, 2024 11:56:11 GMT
Something too look at once in the championship. Hate the clickbait nature of that article. So misleading. Sounds as if he's saying they need to boost everyones wages to stand a chance. No, they will need to strengthen their squad. To do this, they will inevitably have to offer higher wages. As a finance expert, advocating "Quadrupling your wages" for every club promoted into the Championship is just mad. What happens if they get relegated and now have everyone on silly wages? I used to like the podcast but now I tend to think that the comedian, and especially, the accountant, are so full of themselves, and their fame, that it comes across as more exaggerated and attention seeking. With nicknames for their wives and stories about what they get up to that has nothing to do with football, never mine football finances. This article is a good example of that. Less analytical research; a few numbers that anyone could google in two minutes; and stating the, absolute, obvious about how difficult it is in a higher division where all the clubs have, so spend, more money. It's like he was asked to write something so just spent five minutes telling us what we already knew without the benefit of any proper analytical study. The man is, frankly, full of hot air most of the time. |
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Post by seriouslyred on Apr 19, 2024 14:56:47 GMT
Hate the clickbait nature of that article. So misleading. Sounds as if he's saying they need to boost everyones wages to stand a chance. No, they will need to strengthen their squad. To do this, they will inevitably have to offer higher wages. As a finance expert, advocating "Quadrupling your wages" for every club promoted into the Championship is just mad. What happens if they get relegated and now have everyone on silly wages? I used to like the podcast but now I tend to think that the comedian, and especially, the accountant, are so full of themselves, and their fame, that it come across as more exaggerated and attention seeking. With nicknames for their wives and stories about what they get up to that has nothing to do with football, never mine football finances. This article is a good example of that. Less analytical research; a few numbers that anyone could google in two minutes; and stating the, absolute, obvious about how difficult it is in a higher division where all the clubs have, so spend, more money. It's like he was asked to write something so just spent five minutes telling us what we already knew without the benefit of any proper analytical study. The man is, frankly, full of hot air most of the time. There has always been a correlation between wage budget and league position, with a handful of outliers every season. That clearly doesn't mean pay your existing squad double after a promotion. The reality is that some players will have promotion clauses while others won't be renewed. And some will look for more money elsewhere via their agent. The challenge is to continually improve the squad through training, tactics AND player acquisition... just that there's far more money and far more teams fishing in the Championship talent pool. Aside from Wrexham and their checkbook this summer, not sure there are many who can outbid us for key acquisitions. Not if the rumour mill is true and we are genuinely looking for "elite" players to strengthen our squad. |
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Post by Mundell on Apr 19, 2024 20:51:04 GMT
Hate the clickbait nature of that article. So misleading. Sounds as if he's saying they need to boost everyones wages to stand a chance. No, they will need to strengthen their squad. To do this, they will inevitably have to offer higher wages. As a finance expert, advocating "Quadrupling your wages" for every club promoted into the Championship is just mad. What happens if they get relegated and now have everyone on silly wages? I used to like the podcast but now I tend to think that the comedian, and especially, the accountant, are so full of themselves, and their fame, that it come across as more exaggerated and attention seeking. With nicknames for their wives and stories about what they get up to that has nothing to do with football, never mine football finances. This article is a good example of that. Less analytical research; a few numbers that anyone could google in two minutes; and stating the, absolute, obvious about how difficult it is in a higher division where all the clubs have, so spend, more money. It's like he was asked to write something so just spent five minutes telling us what we already knew without the benefit of any proper analytical study. The man is, frankly, full of hot air most of the time. Couldn’t agree more. |
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Post by seriouslyred on Apr 19, 2024 21:52:01 GMT
I used to like the podcast but now I tend to think that the comedian, and especially, the accountant, are so full of themselves, and their fame, that it come across as more exaggerated and attention seeking. With nicknames for their wives and stories about what they get up to that has nothing to do with football, never mine football finances. This article is a good example of that. Less analytical research; a few numbers that anyone could google in two minutes; and stating the, absolute, obvious about how difficult it is in a higher division where all the clubs have, so spend, more money. It's like he was asked to write something so just spent five minutes telling us what we already knew without the benefit of any proper analytical study. The man is, frankly, full of hot air most of the time. Couldn’t agree more. Sure So what's next?! |
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Post by Mundell on Apr 19, 2024 22:30:23 GMT
I no longer listen to the podcast!! |
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Post by kings hill addick on Apr 19, 2024 23:38:43 GMT
I no longer listen to the podcast!! Nor do I! |
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