|
|
Post by jonkool on Aug 29, 2016 17:49:33 GMT
To my mind RD has no clue when it comes to understanding the business that is professional soccer but he clearly has an ego the size of a house.
My suspicion is that he stumbled in the book or the movie of Moneyball and was excited to transform the principles of Billy Beane into soccer.
However his naivety in terms of pro soccer in the EFL meant that Moneyball principles in terms of player stats and bolstering the playing staff towards the end of the winter window (post the All Star game in baseball) was faulty.
Moneyball had every chance of success in US baseball as the stats and the theories were applied to one national league with feeder leagues/ youth divisions within the same national set up. RD tried to implement a recruitment process involving players and coaches who had no concept of the intensity of the Championship and hence the Moneyball disasters of Naby, the Great Dane, The Bird to name just a few.
Mundell has often stated that RD has got it wrong in terms of execution of his processes and this season is far more interesting in as much as both the coaching/scouting/playing staff are by and large uk based and the search for hidden value has far better odds to be successful.
However RD's continuing naivety - a savvy game player would have kicked KM into touch with the sofa last May - may well continue to be his undoing as he just doesn't understand what he needs to do to ensure that CAFC is back in the Championship next August.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mundell on Oct 21, 2016 21:01:33 GMT
It's been an incredibly disappointing and frustrating start to the season and saying anything positive risks appearing ridiculous. In truth, there isn't much to be positive about though. Something clearly isn't quite right with the shape and balance of the side and Slade's post Port Vale rant, while entirely understandable, was ill-judged and clear evidence that he too is nearing his wit's end. However, a glass can be both half-empty and half-full at the same time. Right now, with emotions running high, the majority of fans are in the half-empty camp. While it's true that we've only won three games in thirteen, its also true that we've only lost three, so the real question is whether our underlying performances have been better, worse or about the same as our results so far? The excellent Experimental 3-6-1 site is a good place to look for an answer. The blogger's rating system is explained here, but in short the idea is to calibrate expected goals for and against using the number and type of shots for and against in the matches played so far. The resultant rating, or goal difference, is a better indicator of form than results in the short-term, while correlating highly with results and league table position over the course of a season. As we saw both last season and the season before, Experimental's ratings turned out to be a depressingly good predictor of our eventual fate. So how do we rate? We are placed 7th in the table for 'expected goals scored', 9th for 'expected goals conceded' and 10th overall. Perhaps that's what we'd have expected. We clearly need to improve our performances, but we are not that far off a play-off place. It's probably also no surprise that the league is very close. Here are the teams ranked according to Experimental's rating system, but with my somewhat arbitrary categorisation. The strongest teamsBradford City Millwall Sheffield United The chasing packRochdale Oxford United Scunthorpe United Bristol Rovers Bolton W MK Dons Charlton A Mid-table with positive expected goal differenceCoventry City Peterborough United AFC Wimbledon Mid-table with negative expected goal differenceNorthampton Town Fleetwood Town Bury Gillingham Walsall StrugglingSwindon Town Chesterfield Port Vale Oldham A Southend U Shrewsbury T The big surprise in these rankings is, of course, Millwall. Not perhaps what we wanted to hear, but it seems that they've been playing much better than their results suggest, ranking 4th for their attack and second in defence. There are no guarantees with analysis of this type, of course, but all other things being equal we might expect Millwall to begin climbing the table soon. At the other end of the spectrum are Port Vale. They would appear to be significantly outperforming, suggesting that their 6th place in the table is not sustainable. Perhaps it's not surprising that we battered them on Tuesday evening and even more disappointing we didn't return home with the three points our performance warranted. Bradford City appear to be the standout team at the moment, largely due to an outstanding defence. Peterborough have the best attack, but one of the worst defences. Sheffield United are the best all rounders, apart from Millwall, while poor old Shrewsbury appear to be the worst side in the league by some margin. It's not surprising we beat them easily. It's still early days, but this data does give us some idea how we are faring, as it did throughout last season. We're perhaps not that far off, but we do need to improve. What a difference Ahmed Kashi would make if he was available in the new year. And what about Tony Watt? Might he be recalled from Hearts in January? What is for sure is that the odds of the promotion the owner so badly needs are too long for comfort. Something needs to change. Perhaps not dramatically, but change and improvement is clearly needed. |
|
|
|
Post by jonkool on Oct 21, 2016 21:52:24 GMT
As always a great analysis m8
I think it is accepted that our Achilles heel is our aged centre midfield. We have experienced a possible improvement over the past two games and maybe it's no coincidence that this has coincided with an improvement in form of Freddie who at last has shown his pedigree.
This shouldn't have come as a surprise given that he has languished in Burnley's reserves for most of the past year.
In Moneyball Billy Beane always pushed the boat out after the mid season All Star game and maybe that's the owner's intention this time around. A quality centre mid and striker would make all the difference and maybe this would be funded by shifting BA and Tex off the wage bill in January??
|
|
|
|
Post by Mundell on Oct 21, 2016 22:06:42 GMT
Thanks jonkool Wasn't Moneyball a great read. Really hard to apply it to football. Let's hope Russell Slade is our Billy Beane. Two well judged signings in January really could make all the difference as you say. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2016 0:09:30 GMT
Especially after the loss of the loan window, I worry that January might be too late
|
|
|
|
Post by Mundell on Oct 22, 2016 9:49:44 GMT
Especially after the loss of the loan window, I worry that January might be too late I fear you may be right. One way or another Russell Slade simply has to get the current group of players performing. However, we could also do with benefiting from some good old fashioned randomness. One of the most striking things about Experimental's probabilities is how even each of the matches is and how low the chances are of the favourite winning. The most one-sided game in League One today is MK Dons versus Southend, but MK still only have a 56.3% chance of winning. The significance of this is not just that it means that the outcome of many matches is close to a coin flip, but more importantly it implies that putting together a sequence of wins is very hard, even for the best sides. If MK Dons were as likely to win every game as they are to beat Southend today, they'd still have less than a one in five chance of winning three on the spin and be around one in twenty to win five in succession. At some stage this season, and ideally before the January window opens, we're going to need to win several games on the bounce. We'll need to play well to do that, obviously, but we'll also need to beat the odds. Some good old fashioned randomness is going to be much needed if we are to generate some momentum and close the gap to the leading sides. |
|
|
|
Post by MurciaAl on Oct 22, 2016 10:03:48 GMT
You should be pissing the prediction league Mundell  |
|
|
|
Post by Mundell on Oct 23, 2016 10:12:59 GMT
You should be pissing the prediction league Mundell Almost certainly not MurciaAl !! Theory is always much easier than practice!! For what it's worth, had you simply based your predictions yesterday on the 'most likely outcome' for each match based on the Experimental 3-6-1 model, you'd have got five results out of eleven right. You'd be cursing your luck that Port Vale recovered from two goals down against Oxford and you'd be annoyed that two of your home bankers, MK Dons and Peterborough, contrived to lose to Southend and AFC Wimbledon, though you'd probably be phlegmatic about the draws at Bradford and Gillingham and about the fact that slightly against the odds Walsall won what was always going to be a very close game at Swindon. It might be stating the obvious, but another striking feature of 3-6-1's probabilities is that the draw is always the least likely result, at around 25%. Perhaps most significantly, in only two matches, i.e. at MK Dons and Millwall, and in the latter only just, was a draw more likely than a win by the underdog. It follows that our sequence of eight draws in fourteen games has been fairly unlikely. Statistically, we should probably have won more games, both at home and especially away, and even had we also lost more we'd almost certainly have had more points. When we assess and analyse our own results and the resultant league table, especially in the immediate, emotional aftermath of a match, we should be careful not to be fooled by randomness. |
|
|
|
Post by jonkool on Oct 23, 2016 13:10:46 GMT
You should be pissing the prediction league Mundell Almost certainly not MurciaAl !! Theory is always much easier than practice!! For what it's worth, had you simply based your predictions yesterday on the 'most likely outcome' for each match based on the Experimental 3-6-1 model, you'd have got five results out of eleven right. You'd be cursing your luck that Port Vale recovered from two goals down against Oxford and you'd be annoyed that two of your home bankers, MK Dons and Peterborough, contrived to lose to Southend and AFC Wimbledon, though you'd probably be phlegmatic about the draws at Bradford and Gillingham and about the fact that slightly against the odds Walsall won what was always going to be a very close game at Swindon. It might be stating the obvious, but another striking feature of 3-6-1's probabilities is that the draw is always the least likely result, at around 25%. Perhaps most significantly, in only two matches, i.e. at MK Dons and Millwall, and in the latter only just, was a draw more likely than a win by the underdog. It follows that our sequence of eight draws in fourteen games has been fairly unlikely. Statistically, we should probably have won more games, both at home and especially away, and even had we also lost more we'd almost certainly have had more points. When we assess and analyse our own results and the resultant league table, especially in the immediate, emotional aftermath of a match, we should be careful not to be fooled by randomness. It's all about entropy m8 and we greatly reduced randomness when we appointed our current manager. He is old school like Pulis and his first priority is picking players that he feel he can trust playing a programmed system based on defensive discipline which he hopes is the complete opposite to the chaos theory and randomness! He doesn't trust Ajosie but we were far more creative when he came on. He upsets the opposition by his pace, movement and unpredictability but the gaffer will always prefer half pace Novak who is highly predictable in what he offers both good and bad! So either Russell has to be the leopard who changed his spots or a change in manager (again) would be required for CAFC to meaningfully increase their randomness. On another completely different front Enery and some of the CL diehards have a thread where they are getting excited about RD selling by February. It's a plucking at straws 'I wish' thread but it's worth a read at the comments relating to price and value. There are many who making the número uni trading error by letting their raw emotions to the owner get well and truly in their way when considering the fascinating issue that is 'the price'. |
|
|
|
Post by Mundell on Oct 23, 2016 13:50:46 GMT
That's very interesting jonkool Your argument would explain why Slade hasn't yet given Botaka a start, for example. Too much of a loose cannon for a cautious manager. Might win us the game, but also might lose it. I think you're right. Slade needs to take some risks if he's going to turn it around. Haven't seen that thread on CL. What's it called? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2016 14:53:39 GMT
That's very interesting jonkool Your argument would explain why Slade hasn't yet given Botaka a start, for example. Too much of a loose cannon for a cautious manager. Might win us the game, but also might lose it. I think you're right. Slade needs to take some risks if he's going to turn it around. Haven't seen that thread on CL. What's it called? The threads called Living in cloud cuckoo land :-)) |
|
|
|
Post by jonkool on Oct 23, 2016 17:45:50 GMT
That's very interesting jonkool Your argument would explain why Slade hasn't yet given Botaka a start, for example. Too much of a loose cannon for a cautious manager. Might win us the game, but also might lose it. I think you're right. Slade needs to take some risks if he's going to turn it around. Haven't seen that thread on CL. What's it called? The threads called Living in cloud cuckoo land :-)) Top comment top man! |
|
|
|
Post by jonkool on Oct 23, 2016 17:58:26 GMT
That's very interesting jonkool Your argument would explain why Slade hasn't yet given Botaka a start, for example. Too much of a loose cannon for a cautious manager. Might win us the game, but also might lose it. I think you're right. Slade needs to take some risks if he's going to turn it around. Haven't seen that thread on CL. What's it called? Potential investors is the name although I prefer Wiggy's alternative! Back to your Botaka analogy it's old school coaching mentality which with reference to Moneyball, Billy Beane had to slap down his old style scouts who loved players who looked good whereas Billy needed to sign 'ugly' players who got the job done. What Russell has to put at the centre of his thought process is that a draw = 1 point, a win 3 points and 1 win and 2 draws = 5 points whilst 2 wins and 1 defeat = 6 points. Attack tier 3 defences with pace and strength will terrify them. So more wins and the occasional loss will produce a higher points total. As they say it ain't rocket science  |
|
|
|
Post by seriouslyred on Oct 23, 2016 17:58:36 GMT
That's very interesting jonkool Your argument would explain why Slade hasn't yet given Botaka a start, for example. Too much of a loose cannon for a cautious manager. Might win us the game, but also might lose it. I think you're right. Slade needs to take some risks if he's going to turn it around. Haven't seen that thread on CL. What's it called? The threads called Living in cloud cuckoo land :-)) I have skimmed the thread and asides from rumours of an imminent takeover - as if this would leak onto CL - there is one point of view that links back to this thread: The value of CAFC if it stays put in League 1 or the bottom of the Championship is very low in the range £7-20M. That is compared to the £45-50M spent by RD. However the club could be worth £100M in the FAPL. And therefore one can factor in the % chances of promotion to the FAPL into a valuation. Right now that's nil! Should we attain promotion back to the Championship over say the next 18 months then prospective owners might then evaluate the losses required to move to a top eight place in the Championship and a 25% chance of promotion to the FAPL. There's only two problems with that approach: luck plus more and more clubs are gearing up to be in the top ten of the Championship - the standard and the costs are rising every season. We are now looking at a situation where £20M spent on players is no guarantee of success. How does this link back to recent posts? Quite simply if RD is looking for an exit at a decent price then he may want to enhance the chances of winning games by fixing the deficiencies in the squad in the next window. Slade was perceived as a long term punt and perhaps he will get more of a chance to prove he can win some games in the new year? The cost of moving us up the league is small compared to the cost of standing still and having nil chance of returning to the FAPL. |
|
|
|
Post by jonkool on Oct 23, 2016 18:39:34 GMT
The threads called Living in cloud cuckoo land :-)) I have skimmed the thread and asides from rumours of an imminent takeover - as if this would leak onto CL - there is one point of view that links back to this thread: The value of CAFC if it stays put in League 1 or the bottom of the Championship is very low in the range £7-20M. However the club could be worth £100M in the FAPL. And therefore one factors in the % chances of promotion to the FAPL into a valuation. Right now that's nil! Should we attain promotion back to the Championship over say the next 18 months then prospective owners might evaluate the losses needed to move to a top eight place in the Championship and a 25% chance of promotion to the FAPL. There's only two problems with that approach: luck plus more and more clubs are gearing up to be in the top ten of the Championship - the standard and the costs are rising every season. We are now looking at a situation where £20M spent on players is no guarantee of success. Not wrong there m8 The one differentiation we have from most other clubs - no it's not a unique differentiation - is the Academy. Any parent who has a gifted youth will be greatly attracted by the real chance of first team participation if his bairn signs for SE7. Having said that we are extremely unlikely to have any chance of Prem until the TV money is seriously cut back - that of course may prove to be sooner than later with Sky reporting viewing figures 30% down and BT having zip all Chumps League viewers! |
|
|
|
Post by seriouslyred on Oct 23, 2016 18:59:32 GMT
I have skimmed the thread and asides from rumours of an imminent takeover - as if this would leak onto CL - there is one point of view that links back to this thread: The value of CAFC if it stays put in League 1 or the bottom of the Championship is very low in the range £7-20M. However the club could be worth £100M in the FAPL. And therefore one factors in the % chances of promotion to the FAPL into a valuation. Right now that's nil! Should we attain promotion back to the Championship over say the next 18 months then prospective owners might evaluate the losses needed to move to a top eight place in the Championship and a 25% chance of promotion to the FAPL. There's only two problems with that approach: luck plus more and more clubs are gearing up to be in the top ten of the Championship - the standard and the costs are rising every season. We are now looking at a situation where £20M spent on players is no guarantee of success. Not wrong there m8 The one differentiation we have from most other clubs - no it's not a unique differentiation - is the Academy. Any parent who has a gifted youth will be greatly attracted by the real chance of first team participation if his bairn signs for SE7. Having said that we are extremely unlikely to have any chance of Prem until the TV money is seriously cut back - that of course may prove to be sooner than later with Sky reporting viewing figures 30% down and BT having zip all Chumps League viewers! I wouldn't count on the Championship loss limits coming down anytime soon. They were forced up under FAPL influence because the FAPL wanted promoted clubs to have a chance and increase competition - so they wanted them to have higher budgets / better players. For sure the FAPL TV deal might come down in the next round but that's nearly three seasons away. And the overseass rights are spectacular. Take a look at the table after Chelsea thrashed Man Utd and there are five clubs challenging for the title - pure box office! Right now four of the top five in the Championship are running squads worth £40M+ according to Transfermarkt. Once again two ex FAPL clubs are right up there with highly skilled squads and expensive acquisitions. Perhaps leaving the rest to fight it out in the play-offs. Now £40M is double what we had at our peak and it has taken Wednesday less than 18 months to get there. They have paid out c. £10-12M a season on new players plus another fortune in wages on loans and out of contract players from the likes of Watford, Boro and Sunderland. There is intent and £££ on show. It is possible that a future owner of CAFC will wish to grow success in the same way that either Wednesday or Huddersfield are doing. But they have to be extraordinarily precise in terms of every footballing appointment and every transfer. Something which RD has simply failed to do. By the way, I totally agree that parents will want their lads to sign for us simply because we blood four kids a season into the first team and some get to hold down a place. We are not buying success. Unfortunately the Academy keeps supplying defenders and not the front six talent we need. And for the third window running we have not resolved our attacking options. |
|
|
|
Post by jonkool on Oct 23, 2016 21:38:41 GMT
Not wrong there m8 The one differentiation we have from most other clubs - no it's not a unique differentiation - is the Academy. Any parent who has a gifted youth will be greatly attracted by the real chance of first team participation if his bairn signs for SE7. Having said that we are extremely unlikely to have any chance of Prem until the TV money is seriously cut back - that of course may prove to be sooner than later with Sky reporting viewing figures 30% down and BT having zip all Chumps League viewers! I wouldn't count on the Championship loss limits coming down anytime soon. They were forced up under FAPL influence because the FAPL wanted promoted clubs to have a chance and increase competition - so they wanted them to have higher budgets / better players. For sure the FAPL TV deal might come down in the next round but that's nearly three seasons away. And the overseass rights are spectacular. Take a look at the table after Chelsea thrashed Man Utd and there are five clubs challenging for the title - pure box office! Right now four of the top five in the Championship are running squads worth £40M+ according to Transfermarkt. Once again two ex FAPL clubs are right up there with highly skilled squads and expensive acquisitions. Perhaps leaving the rest to fight it out in the play-offs. Now £40M is double what we had at our peak and it has taken Wednesday less than 18 months to get there. They have paid out c. £10-12M a season on new players plus another fortune in wages on loans and out of contract players from the likes of Watford, Boro and Sunderland. There is intent and £££ on show. It is possible that a future owner of CAFC will wish to grow success in the same way that either Wednesday or Huddersfield are doing. But they have to be extraordinarily precise in terms of every footballing appointment and every transfer. Something which RD has simply failed to do. By the way, I totally agree that parents will want their lads to sign for us simply because we blood four kids a season into the first team and some get to hold down a place. We are not buying success. Unfortunately the Academy keeps supplying defenders and not the front six talent we need. And for the third window running we have not resolved our attacking options. Lots of good points there RS! In terms of attacking talent Lookman and possibly Hanlon are positive attackers and plenty more are coming through the 18's in midfield and up front. As you say RD's great failure has been in the execution of policy and maybe he will never solve the problem whilst he retains his CEO! |
|
|
|
Post by AndyAddick on Oct 24, 2016 9:08:46 GMT
I have skimmed the thread and asides from rumours of an imminent takeover - as if this would leak onto CL - there is one point of view that links back to this thread: The value of CAFC if it stays put in League 1 or the bottom of the Championship is very low in the range £7-20M. However the club could be worth £100M in the FAPL. And therefore one factors in the % chances of promotion to the FAPL into a valuation. Right now that's nil! Should we attain promotion back to the Championship over say the next 18 months then prospective owners might evaluate the losses needed to move to a top eight place in the Championship and a 25% chance of promotion to the FAPL. There's only two problems with that approach: luck plus more and more clubs are gearing up to be in the top ten of the Championship - the standard and the costs are rising every season. We are now looking at a situation where £20M spent on players is no guarantee of success. Not wrong there m8 The one differentiation we have from most other clubs - no it's not a unique differentiation - is the Academy. Any parent who has a gifted youth will be greatly attracted by the real chance of first team participation if his bairn signs for SE7. Having said that we are extremely unlikely to have any chance of Prem until the TV money is seriously cut back - that of course may prove to be sooner than later with Sky reporting viewing figures 30% down and BT having zip all Chumps League viewers! Academy = Rolands "production line" |
|
|
|
Post by jonkool on Oct 25, 2016 6:55:11 GMT
Still something to be proud of as it will hopefully be intact long after RD and then the next two owners have left!
|
|
|
|
Post by squareball on Oct 25, 2016 7:35:54 GMT
Not wrong there m8 The one differentiation we have from most other clubs - no it's not a unique differentiation - is the Academy. Any parent who has a gifted youth will be greatly attracted by the real chance of first team participation if his bairn signs for SE7. Having said that we are extremely unlikely to have any chance of Prem until the TV money is seriously cut back - that of course may prove to be sooner than later with Sky reporting viewing figures 30% down and BT having zip all Chumps League viewers! Academy = Rolands "production line" Correct...of course before Roland it was Slaters production and before that Murrays,etc etc All academies = the production line of the club that owns them. |
|
|
|
Post by AndyAddick on Oct 25, 2016 7:49:10 GMT
Academy = Rolands "production line" Correct...of course before Roland it was Slaters production and before that Murrays,etc etc All academies = the production line of the club that owns them. Just a pity that our CEO made it absolutely crystal clear that the academy is not for the benefit of CAFC "on the park" , just the financial benefit of RD's "toy". Out of interest , how many players has the academy produced that went on to be significant transfers ? |
|
|
|
Post by squareball on Oct 25, 2016 8:22:21 GMT
Correct...of course before Roland it was Slaters production and before that Murrays,etc etc All academies = the production line of the club that owns them. Just a pity that our CEO made it absolutely crystal clear that the academy is not for the benefit of CAFC "on the park" , just the financial benefit of RD's "toy". Out of interest , how many players has the academy produced that went on to be significant transfers ? Very few players will be sold on unless they benefit CAFC on the park first. That is true of almost all players at all academies. In answer to your question about significant transfer, very few is the answer which doesn't give much credence to the notion of a farm or a production line. A better question would be how many have the academy produced that went on to play for CAFC for their entire career ? Is RD quoted somewhere about CAFC being his toy? |
|
|
|
Post by AndyAddick on Oct 25, 2016 8:28:58 GMT
Just a pity that our CEO made it absolutely crystal clear that the academy is not for the benefit of CAFC "on the park" , just the financial benefit of RD's "toy". Out of interest , how many players has the academy produced that went on to be significant transfers ? Very few players will be sold on unless they benefit CAFC on the park first. That is true of almost all players at all academies. In answer to your question about significant transfer, very few is the answer which doesn't give much credence to the notion of a farm or a production line. A better question would be how many have the academy produced that went on to play for CAFC for their entire career ? Is RD quoted somewhere about CAFC being his toy? "toy" is MY analogy , his play thing, an expensive one yes, but how can he be taken seriously as an owner going on the personnel (bar Riga) he has employed. Our CEO described the academy as a production line, something like "charlton fans will be able to watch players we produced in the prem" , was that not said ? As you rightly point out, very few have gone onto greater things, so yet another oversight / miscalculation / naive decision from our management team... |
|
|
|
Post by squareball on Oct 25, 2016 8:44:02 GMT
Very few players will be sold on unless they benefit CAFC on the park first. That is true of almost all players at all academies. In answer to your question about significant transfer, very few is the answer which doesn't give much credence to the notion of a farm or a production line. A better question would be how many have the academy produced that went on to play for CAFC for their entire career ? Is RD quoted somewhere about CAFC being his toy? "toy" is MY analogy , his play thing, an expensive one yes, but how can he be taken seriously as an owner going on the personnel (bar Riga) he has employed. Our CEO described the academy as a production line, something like "charlton fans will be able to watch players we produced in the prem" , was that not said ? As you rightly point out, very few have gone onto greater things, so yet another oversight / miscalculation / naive decision from our management team... For many decades I have watched players we produced playing in the top flight. What is different? Haven't you? You're offended by this now somehow? So KM is quoted somewhere saying the academy is a production line? Show me that in exact words as that would piss me off seriously. What you have described her as saying is what we already know and have seen for years and is the purpose of academies, to give young players a chance to shine, play in the first team and if they are good then move on to bigger and better things. Our players not succeeding at other clubs has nothing to do with CAFC and everything to do with their new clubs and surroundings. A strange thing to say. But still how many of our academy players stayed and played their entire career with us? Is that what the academy is for in your view, that we produce players only for us and who should never move on? |
|
|
|
Post by AndyAddick on Oct 25, 2016 9:56:46 GMT
"toy" is MY analogy , his play thing, an expensive one yes, but how can he be taken seriously as an owner going on the personnel (bar Riga) he has employed. Our CEO described the academy as a production line, something like "charlton fans will be able to watch players we produced in the prem" , was that not said ? As you rightly point out, very few have gone onto greater things, so yet another oversight / miscalculation / naive decision from our management team... For many decades I have watched players we produced playing in the top flight. What is different? Haven't you? You're offended by this now somehow? So KM is quoted somewhere saying the academy is a production line? Show me that in exact words as that would piss me off seriously. What you have described her as saying is what we already know and have seen for years and is the purpose of academies, to give young players a chance to shine, play in the first team and if they are good then move on to bigger and better things. Our players not succeeding at other clubs has nothing to do with CAFC and everything to do with their new clubs and surroundings. A strange thing to say. But still how many of our academy players stayed and played their entire career with us? Is that what the academy is for in your view, that we produce players only for us and who should never move on? It came over as a complete lack of ambition , this was the same sitting as the "customers" statement. Me ,,, take offence lol, takes a bit more to offend me SB, now stop trying to be a WUM , it dont suit you. a reminder of whos running the club and the ambition ........ www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tIVCaZfF5s 4.40 mins , "not prepared to compete" 8.20 mins, "players had no incentive" for 2 bloody months ! complete mismanagement of the side 13.22 "customers" ,disgraceful comments alienating the entire club away from its supporters |
|
|
|
Post by squareball on Oct 25, 2016 13:50:12 GMT
An interesting video.
Watch it again and look at your comments in context.
Not a KM fan , never have been and lots of errors have been made but to make a case you mustn't cherry pick sentences to find bits that suit the argument.
How does the video fit into the production line academy theory?
Has RE got to you as well? I know you don't like him but you're talking his language
We need to support the club. RD will be gone in time.
|
|
|
|
Post by AndyAddick on Oct 25, 2016 16:31:04 GMT
An interesting video. Watch it again and look at your comments in context. Not a KM fan , never have been and lots of errors have been made but to make a case you mustn't cherry pick sentences to find bits that suit the argument. How does the video fit into the production line academy theory? Has RE got to you as well? I know you don't like him but you're talking his language We need to support the club. RD will be gone in time. what on earth are you talking about , i'm not finding bits to suit. It became perfectly clear after this interview that KM is either ill advised, or completely out of her depth as a very average lawyer attempting to run a football club. There were a succession of interviews and "fans forums" (hand picked fans) where she showed her complete naivety of how to appease fans. She may have got away with this in lower leagues or abroad but for RD to let her cut her teeth with a championship club was a very very bad move. I really dont give a shit who runs / owns the club, but I would like to see it run in a professional way by experienced professional people, can we honestly say the club has been run in a "professional way" since the take over ? Hard "lessons" have been learnt. It would appear we have an owner who is a very stubborn businessman who either cant listen to experienced professionals or refuses to do so. He could have surrounded him self with numerous experienced staff, but chose to put a "lawyer" in the driving seat who's experience was limited to providing advise on bloody TV rights and , then moved on to be the "Legal and International Relations Manager" for Standard I kid you not !!! To quote her Wiki page "During her time running Charlton, the club has undergone six managerial changes and been relegated to League One, the third tier of English football." Cracking form ,, What happened to the likes of Murray in the back room "advising" ?? One thing about RD is that he's a typical politician, in that the brown stuff never sticks ,,, he'll never be wrong ,, he'll never back down... (you do know he "turned his progressive liberal ideology into a political movement that he called Vivant" , this is worth a read, scary if he applies the same harebrained ideas to football clubs - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivant ) |
|
|
|
Post by squareball on Oct 25, 2016 17:18:15 GMT
An interesting video. Watch it again and look at your comments in context. Not a KM fan , never have been and lots of errors have been made but to make a case you mustn't cherry pick sentences to find bits that suit the argument. How does the video fit into the production line academy theory? Has RE got to you as well? I know you don't like him but you're talking his language We need to support the club. RD will be gone in time. what on earth are you talking about , i'm not finding bits to suit. It became perfectly clear after this interview that KM is either ill advised, or completely out of her depth as a very average lawyer attempting to run a football club. There were a succession of interviews and "fans forums" (hand picked fans) where she showed her complete naivety of how to appease fans. She may have got away with this in lower leagues or abroad but for RD to let her cut her teeth with a championship club was a very very bad move. I really dont give a shit who runs / owns the club, but I would like to see it run in a professional way by experienced professional people, can we honestly say the club has been run in a "professional way" since the take over ? Hard "lessons" have been learnt. It would appear we have an owner who is a very stubborn businessman who either cant listen to experienced professionals or refuses to do so. He could have surrounded him self with numerous experienced staff, but chose to put a "lawyer" in the driving seat who's experience was limited to providing advise on bloody TV rights and , then moved on to be the "Legal and International Relations Manager" for Standard I kid you not !!! To quote her Wiki page "During her time running Charlton, the club has undergone six managerial changes and been relegated to League One, the third tier of English football." Cracking form ,, What happened to the likes of Murray in the back room "advising" ?? One thing about RD is that he's a typical politician, in that the brown stuff never sticks ,,, he'll never be wrong ,, he'll never back down... (you do know he "turned his progressive liberal ideology into a political movement that he called Vivant" , this is worth a read, scary if he applies the same harebrained ideas to football clubs - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivant ) So we can agree then that she has made poor decisions and we need a change. Some of the stuff you're saying she said was taken out of context however. That unfortunately is the case. True she isn't good at appeasing fans but unfortunately we have a large group of precious special fans that need appeasing. Most of us do not and don't hang on her every word, How vocal were you when the spivs were running the club in a less than professional way |
|
|
|
Post by AndyAddick on Oct 25, 2016 19:55:34 GMT
what on earth are you talking about , i'm not finding bits to suit. It became perfectly clear after this interview that KM is either ill advised, or completely out of her depth as a very average lawyer attempting to run a football club. There were a succession of interviews and "fans forums" (hand picked fans) where she showed her complete naivety of how to appease fans. She may have got away with this in lower leagues or abroad but for RD to let her cut her teeth with a championship club was a very very bad move. I really dont give a shit who runs / owns the club, but I would like to see it run in a professional way by experienced professional people, can we honestly say the club has been run in a "professional way" since the take over ? Hard "lessons" have been learnt. It would appear we have an owner who is a very stubborn businessman who either cant listen to experienced professionals or refuses to do so. He could have surrounded him self with numerous experienced staff, but chose to put a "lawyer" in the driving seat who's experience was limited to providing advise on bloody TV rights and , then moved on to be the "Legal and International Relations Manager" for Standard I kid you not !!! To quote her Wiki page "During her time running Charlton, the club has undergone six managerial changes and been relegated to League One, the third tier of English football." Cracking form ,, What happened to the likes of Murray in the back room "advising" ?? One thing about RD is that he's a typical politician, in that the brown stuff never sticks ,,, he'll never be wrong ,, he'll never back down... (you do know he "turned his progressive liberal ideology into a political movement that he called Vivant" , this is worth a read, scary if he applies the same harebrained ideas to football clubs - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivant ) So we can agree then that she has made poor decisions and we need a change. Some of the stuff you're saying she said was taken out of context however. That unfortunately is the case. True she isn't good at appeasing fans but unfortunately we have a large group of precious special fans that need appeasing. Most of us do not and don't hang on her every word, How vocal were you when the spivs were running the club in a less than professional way To be absolutely crystal , I don't support CARDs actions nor thier club icon / poster boy Rick The spivs got us promoted with other people's money , the real spiv sold us out , at least they had some footballing nouse ... Our presious fans are an embarrassment |
|
|
|
Post by Mundell on Oct 25, 2016 21:57:19 GMT
Just watched the video again. Thanks for posting.
Fairly obviously, Katrien Meire could have been more careful with her choice of words and with the way she chose to make certain points. However, I have to say that the hysteria this panel discussion created seems even more absurd now than it did at the time.
Once you cut through the bluster and some of the unhelpful language to identify the core messages, it becomes clear that much of what Meire said actually makes sense. Moreover, it's also clear that if Duchatelet could have achieved his objectives he'd have succeeded in building a sustainable business model for the club, rather than destroying it.
Once again, we're back to the question of execution. Appalling execution has been the problem, not malign intent.
To be clear, I'm not defending Katrien Meire. Appointing her as CEO is probably Duchatelet's biggest mistake. It was a really poor decision.
I've now concluded that the club is indeed facing an existential crisis. At the heart of that crisis is a major disconnect between the expectations of fans and the reality of the financial nightmare the club and others like it faces. The wage bill needed to fund a playing squad which can compete in the Championship, let alone one that could be expected to compete for a play-off place, implies significant losses and a major funding gap of up to £10m p.a. Or more. That's a very expensive hobby. The club is simply not sustainable in the Championship.
However, if the club's revenues are too small to fund Championship football, the club's infrastructure is too expensive to enable anything close to breakeven in League One. Moreover, as we've already witnessed this season, the club's fans simply won't 'accept' League One football. The club is not sustainable in League One either.
There may be no way out. The only real hope, beyond a sudden improvement in the current owner's execution of strategy, is the arrival of a very wealthy white knight. We may get lucky, or we may not, but even if we do the underlying challenge the club faces is not going away. Our white knight will need deep pockets and almost certainly a large slice of luck if he or she is to escape the nightmare and make it to the promised land of the EPL. More likely, I fear, is another disappointment and more of the same. How will our fans react to that?
It's complex and it's not just about the owner. Are our fans saving the club or does the club need saving from its fans?
|
|
