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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 6:06:54 GMT
Why wasn't the Trust formed when Richard Murray was busy running the Club down the shitter 2006- 2010 ? Answer - because he was keeping certain fans sweet with trips to the boardroom. Except others tried to form a trust twice and failed to get it off the ground. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story now. Your interpretation of Charlton history, again. When Murray was busy ruining this football club, I don't remember Richard Hunt, Ben Hayes, even Rick Everitt, rushing to set up a fans group to protest against him. Why was that ? You can argue that RM did far more damage to CAFC than either S & J or RD. Answer - because those same "fans" - Prague being one of them - were flirting in their role as 'Useful Idiots' / Murray Insiders.
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Post by picksy on Apr 21, 2014 6:36:28 GMT
This trust has done oh so much better hasn't it? They already almost lost their legitimacy under pressure from the G21 and have so little influence or political clout that Katrien, Murray and Rolly simply sent them a note saying: "Dear Trust, Sorry, we can't meet with a group of annoying numptys till the end of the season. Love ya lots, The board" That was funny. We are allowed to have fun, right?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 6:46:41 GMT
It will be interesting to see what the trust do if the board decide not to talk to them after the season finishes
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 6:48:56 GMT
It's been as dry as a nun's fanny on here for a while - needed moistening up a bit. Normal service has resumed. Long live the king.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 6:52:39 GMT
Except others tried to form a trust twice and failed to get it off the ground. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story now. Your interpretation of Charlton history, again. When Murray was busy ruining this football club, I don't remember Richard Hunt, Ben Hayes, even Rick Everitt, rushing to set up a fans group to protest against him. Why was that ? You can argue that RM did far more damage to CAFC than either S & J or RD. Answer - because those same "fans" - Prague being one of them - were flirting in their role as 'Useful Idiots' / Murray Insiders. Er, the Trust hasn't been set up now as a protest group. Take the blinkers off.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 8:46:18 GMT
Your interpretation of Charlton history, again. When Murray was busy ruining this football club, I don't remember Richard Hunt, Ben Hayes, even Rick Everitt, rushing to set up a fans group to protest against him. Why was that ? You can argue that RM did far more damage to CAFC than either S & J or RD. Answer - because those same "fans" - Prague being one of them - were flirting in their role as 'Useful Idiots' / Murray Insiders. Er, the Trust hasn't been set up now as a protest group. Take the blinkers off. Just taken them off at the services on the drive up to Hillsborough. See you there Rik
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Post by reamsofverse on Apr 21, 2014 10:03:39 GMT
Your interpretation of Charlton history, again. When Murray was busy ruining this football club, I don't remember Richard Hunt, Ben Hayes, even Rick Everitt, rushing to set up a fans group to protest against him. Why was that ? You can argue that RM did far more damage to CAFC than either S & J or RD. Answer - because those same "fans" - Prague being one of them - were flirting in their role as 'Useful Idiots' / Murray Insiders. Er, the Trust hasn't been set up now as a protest group. Take the blinkers off. Riki if you want to go into detail on a public forum about what respect or acknowledgement the club have for the TRUST then I will but is there any need as you know as well as I do just exactly how the land lies. There have been red cards from the club in the direction of the TRUST already and you know it and you also know that I am not talking about run of the mill things like putting of meetings until the end of the season.
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Post by bartramsboot on Apr 21, 2014 10:04:13 GMT
It will be interesting to see what the trust do if the board decide not to talk to them after the season finishes They will cry a lot and wonder how the club will survive without their input.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 10:52:58 GMT
Er, the Trust hasn't been set up now as a protest group. Take the blinkers off. Riki if you want to go into detail on a public forum about what respect or acknowledgement the club have for the TRUST then I will but is there any need as you know as well as I do just exactly how the land lies. There have been red cards from the club in the direction of the TRUST already and you know it and you also know that I am not talking about run of the mill things like putting of meetings until the end of the season. We'll I'm not in the machinations of the Trust board but it appears the club has the same attitude to all supporters groups. Doesn't that concern you Reams? It should, or we might as well all just accept whatever the latest Vincent Tam wants to do with a club. The most successful modern day period at our club came when the triangle of manager, board and fans were as one. That couldn't be further away right now. We have nod organised body that has done exceptionally well in terms of attracting members and has a leadership who genuinely want to move forward democratically. To have a go at them from the sidelines is like complaining about the government when you've not bothered to vote. RV, I don't get to many away games these days but I'm not going to accept any oneupmanship from anyone regarding my support of the club. I've done my time home and away, I've put my money where my mouth is for several decades now. Because you want to think the Trust only exists tohave a go at Roland, ignoring the fact that it was established long before he was even mentioned as a suitor, doesn't make you right mate.
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Post by reamsofverse on Apr 21, 2014 12:25:23 GMT
Riki if you want to go into detail on a public forum about what respect or acknowledgement the club have for the TRUST then I will but is there any need as you know as well as I do just exactly how the land lies. There have been red cards from the club in the direction of the TRUST already and you know it and you also know that I am not talking about run of the mill things like putting of meetings until the end of the season. We'll I'm not in the machinations of the Trust board but it appears the club has the same attitude to all supporters groups. Doesn't that concern you Reams? It should, or we might as well all just accept whatever the latest Vincent Tam wants to do with a club. The most successful modern day period at our club came when the triangle of manager, board and fans were as one. That couldn't be further away right now. We have nod organised body that has done exceptionally well in terms of attracting members and has a leadership who genuinely want to move forward democratically. To have a go at them from the sidelines is like complaining about the government when you've not bothered to vote. RV, I don't get to many away games these days but I'm not going to accept any oneupmanship from anyone regarding my support of the club. I've done my time home and away, I've put my money where my mouth is for several decades now. Because you want to think the Trust only exists to have a go at Roland, ignoring the fact that it was established long before he was even mentioned as a suitor, doesn't make you right mate. Of course it would concern me but only when it happens, until looking for clues that it might or delving into what RD is up to when he may be up to nothing at all is becoming tedious. If people want to question him or create a negative outlook because he has 5 clubs then that's up to them but they need to be corrected on a few things and realise that not everybody is so distrusting of him. The bottom line is though of course when you have two people like Mr Razell and Mr Hunt who continue to deliberately litter their TRUST site with negativity towards the owners, people will join up because they will eventually be brainwashed by the fear factor of what might happen instead of what isn't going to happen, Razell in particular plugs their website on CL every chance he gets which is good of AFKA to allow it but if you are confident in your product why feel the need to bombard people with it outside of your own website?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 12:36:52 GMT
Been away for a few days. Thought we were under orders not to mention the Trust, G21, CL or the obnoxiousness of various big-headed posters on other sites?
I don't mind; quite the opposite. I reckon they are all fair game and the self-important jumped-up twerps like Hunt and Hayes and the CL moderators deserve all the flak they get because their factionalism is part of the poison that seems to prevent all the various stakeholders in the club - owners, board, management, staff and supporters - from pulling in the same direction.
But I can't keep up with whether we're allowed to say so or not, reams!
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Post by reamsofverse on Apr 21, 2014 13:22:20 GMT
I brought up an article written by PragueAddick who is on the board of the TRUST. I am very critical of his outlook and have said so. I think it is ok to take other fans/ forums to task on certain things just as long as it's constructive criticism and this forum does not turn into what it was before where every other thread was about CL or The TRUST.
This thread has occurred because PragueAddick has again come across as speaking for all fans instead of those he is meant to represent. If he or they cross the line it's only right that they are told so.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 16:15:10 GMT
We'll I'm not in the machinations of the Trust board but it appears the club has the same attitude to all supporters groups. Doesn't that concern you Reams? It should, or we might as well all just accept whatever the latest Vincent Tam wants to do with a club. The most successful modern day period at our club came when the triangle of manager, board and fans were as one. That couldn't be further away right now. We have nod organised body that has done exceptionally well in terms of attracting members and has a leadership who genuinely want to move forward democratically. To have a go at them from the sidelines is like complaining about the government when you've not bothered to vote. RV, I don't get to many away games these days but I'm not going to accept any oneupmanship from anyone regarding my support of the club. I've done my time home and away, I've put my money where my mouth is for several decades now. Because you want to think the Trust only exists to have a go at Roland, ignoring the fact that it was established long before he was even mentioned as a suitor, doesn't make you right mate. Of course it would concern me but only when it happens, until looking for clues that it might or delving into what RD is up to when he may be up to nothing at all is becoming tedious. If people want to question him or create a negative outlook because he has 5 clubs then that's up to them but they need to be corrected on a few things and realise that not everybody is so distrusting of him. The bottom line is though of course when you have two people like Mr Razell and Mr Hunt who continue to deliberately litter their TRUST site with negativity towards the owners, people will join up because they will eventually be brainwashed by the fear factor of what might happen instead of what isn't going to happen, Razell in particular plugs their website on CL every chance he gets which is good of AFKA to allow it but if you are confident in your product why feel the need to bombard people with it outside of your own website? Well that's a bit like saying Sky Sports don't have confidence in their product since they promote themselves on every media going. You're critical of their membership numbers but criticise them for promoting the Trust. I guess they just can't win with you whatever Reams. Re looking for clues, I would agree that starting from a position of suspicion isn't a place I'd start from, but equally blind acceptance would be reckless. Turning stones to find out what's actually happening will either turn up problems or put our minds at rest. What's wrong with that? To me it reads you just don't like the people so the bathwater's going, baby and all.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 21:16:04 GMT
Prague Addick now seems to be calling Richard Murray a liar. I think we all know that Murray in the past has often been guilty of being economical with the actualite. But I no longer care about these ghastly people as the seat of power has changed hands. I just wish all these self-important middle-aged has-been non-entities would please take their egos and agendas and bickering elsewhere and leave RD, Katrien and Riga to get on with the job!
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Post by reamsofverse on Apr 23, 2014 21:45:31 GMT
Murray is a yesterday's man and rightly so.
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Post by americanaddick on Apr 23, 2014 21:59:37 GMT
Murray is a joke.
-Ruined his working relationship with Curbs -Appointed Dowie solely so he could get one over on Jordan -Gave an unproven manager more than £10m to "strengthen the squad" -Sacked Dowie, rightly, then appointed Les Reed, wrongly -Sacked Reed to be replaced with Pardwank -After relegation made a piss poor deal with Tottenham regarding Bent -Gave another manager £10m to "strengthen the squad", because it worked so well the first time! -Allowed Pardew to sign shit like Dickson, Fleetwood, Yassin and Semedo -Sacked Pardew, appointed Parky, then doesn't back the manager AT ALL because he pissed away all the money. -Fucked up the clubs finances to the point where he had to beg Tottenham for an even worse deal regarding Benty in order to get some quick money.
How he made £40m in business is beyond me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 22:12:27 GMT
Prague Addick now seems to be calling Richard Murray a liar. I think we all know that Murray in the past has often been guilty of being economical with the actualite. But I no longer care about these ghastly people as the seat of power has changed hands. I just wish all these self-important middle-aged has-been non-entities would please take their egos and agendas and bickering elsewhere and leave RD, Katrien and Riga to get on with the job! What I don't really get is that you clearly care so little about them that you still decide to go and read what he/they say and then come running back here to resurrect an old thread just so you can tell people how you no longer care. You can surely see how that may look a bit strange to some can't you, an intelligent fella like you. Let it go man.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 22:35:25 GMT
As someone who has worked most of his life in the public sector where I would deal on a day to day basis with all levels of human relationships and where I would rub shoulders with princes and paupers I have never ever come across such a pathetic immature bunch of idiots as you squabbling little bratlets. Get a grip and grow a pair the lot of you. Apart from Sadie, I'm guessing she wouldn't want a pair ? you wont be posting again then ... btw, wtf has has your job got to do with this forum ?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 22:41:48 GMT
It will be interesting to see what the trust do if the board decide not to talk to them after the season finishes bit like the "life of Brian" sketch , "popular Peoples front of Charlton", yeah, what happened to them ,,,, lol
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Post by americanaddick on Apr 23, 2014 22:49:09 GMT
Anyone else notice that the G21 has more or less disappeared? Once the club told them "we're in charge, you can either live in the past or fall in line" they quickly shut up.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 22:49:25 GMT
Prague Addick now seems to be calling Richard Murray a liar. I think we all know that Murray in the past has often been guilty of being economical with the actualite. But I no longer care about these ghastly people as the seat of power has changed hands. I just wish all these self-important middle-aged has-been non-entities would please take their egos and agendas and bickering elsewhere and leave RD, Katrien and Riga to get on with the job! What I don't really get is that you clearly care so little about them that you still decide to go and read what he/they say and then come running back here to resurrect an old thread just so you can tell people how you no longer care. You can surely see how that may look a bit strange to some can't you, an intelligent fella like you. Let it go man. have you just not done the very same by replying to IA, fueling the fire ?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2014 7:23:47 GMT
Anyone else notice that the G21 has more or less disappeared? Once the club told them "we're in charge, you can either live in the past or fall in line" they quickly shut up. Or laying low, thank f&£k. They are not necessary and an embarrassment really. I do like rick and some of the others, my uncle (Paul Ellis) is good friends with quite a few as he was part if the valley party himself, but it don't stop me disagreeing with them. What kind of football supporters are we if we need to form a vigilant type group just to unsuccessfully ask questions? It's a joke and I hope it was just a matter of emotions run riot and not thinking straight and now they think better of it. Just let the CAST ask the questions it's what they're there for ffs.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2014 7:36:32 GMT
Anyone else notice that the G21 has more or less disappeared? Once the club told them "we're in charge, you can either live in the past or fall in line" they quickly shut up. Or laying low, thank f&£k. They are not necessary and an embarrassment really. I do like rick and some of the others, my uncle (Paul Ellis) is good friends with quite a few as he was part if the valley party himself, but it don't stop me disagreeing with them. What kind of football supporters are we if we need to form a vigilant type group just to unsuccessfully ask questions? It's a joke and I hope it was just a matter of emotions run riot and not thinking straight and now they think better of it. Just let the CAST ask the questions it's what they're there for ffs. No need for CAST either, Sadie. The Club is in safer hands now than at any time since Curbs left, and certain people's judgement went out of the door with him. CAST is undemocratic, unrepresentative, ego driven, and the football fan's equivalent of Dads Army trying to halt a panzer division.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2014 7:52:40 GMT
Or laying low, thank f&£k. They are not necessary and an embarrassment really. I do like rick and some of the others, my uncle (Paul Ellis) is good friends with quite a few as he was part if the valley party himself, but it don't stop me disagreeing with them. What kind of football supporters are we if we need to form a vigilant type group just to unsuccessfully ask questions? It's a joke and I hope it was just a matter of emotions run riot and not thinking straight and now they think better of it. Just let the CAST ask the questions it's what they're there for ffs. No need for CAST either, Sadie. The Club is in safer hands now than at any time since Curbs left, and certain people's judgement went out of the door with him. CAST is undemocratic, unrepresentative, ego driven, and the football fan's equivalent of Dads Army trying to halt a panzer division. RV, can you explain what you mean when you say they're (i) undemocratic and (ii) unrepresentative. Just trying to understand your pov.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2014 8:17:04 GMT
CAST are not only undemocratic & unrepresentative - please add "dishonest" as well.
Undemocratic - who elected them to their positions? When was the ballot ? Who took part ? How many voted ? Where is the evidence?
Unrepresentative - despite the widespread publicity their stunts have attracted, they still have less than 5% of Charlton's supporter base on their membership list.
Dishonest - when they recruited members last year, they blatantly lured the gullible by calling out "sign here if you want to stop coucil flats being built on the Valley"- a brazen whopper told to boost membership numbers. I saw this with my own eyes at the CAST stand behind the Covered End. It was subsequently admitted by the CAST politburo and Dear Leader For Life Kim Yong Raz.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2014 9:34:37 GMT
CAST are not only undemocratic & unrepresentative - please add "dishonest" as well. Undemocratic - who elected them to their positions? When was the ballot ? Who took part ? How many voted ? Where is the evidence? Unrepresentative - despite the widespread publicity their stunts have attracted, they still have less than 5% of Charlton's supporter base on their membership list. Dishonest - when they recruited members last year, they blatantly lured the gullible by calling out "sign here if you want to stop coucil flats being built on the Valley"- a brazen whopper told to boost membership numbers. I saw this with my own eyes at the CAST stand behind the Covered End. It was subsequently admitted by the CAST politburo and Dear Leader For Life Kim Yong Raz. I don't agree sorry. The idea is a good one the representative numbers are what we make of it, if everyone like yourself who is sceptical and wants their views represented then they should join, the more people that join the more different views and opinions are heard and represented, then the democracy will come. As it stands members are happy with who is doing what, if they get a substantial amount of paying members that are not I am sure things would change. If they only have 1.2 thousand members then only that amount have asked to be represented, if they had 20 thousand then they would represent them as such. Ballots, discussions, nominations and questions would be broader and more diverse if more joined. What I think the trust need to do is entice people like you RV into joining getting a more varied types of supporters different opinions, healthy debates.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2014 9:54:39 GMT
CAST are not only undemocratic & unrepresentative - please add "dishonest" as well. Undemocratic - who elected them to their positions? When was the ballot ? Who took part ? How many voted ? Where is the evidence? Unrepresentative - despite the widespread publicity their stunts have attracted, they still have less than 5% of Charlton's supporter base on their membership list. Dishonest - when they recruited members last year, they blatantly lured the gullible by calling out "sign here if you want to stop coucil flats being built on the Valley"- a brazen whopper told to boost membership numbers. I saw this with my own eyes at the CAST stand behind the Covered End. It was subsequently admitted by the CAST politburo and Dear Leader For Life Kim Yong Raz. I don't agree sorry. The idea is a good one the representative numbers are what we make of it, if everyone like yourself who is sceptical and wants their views represented then they should join, the more people that join the more different views and opinions are heard and represented, then the democracy will come. As it stands members are happy with who is doing what, if they get a substantial amount of paying members that are not I am sure things would change. If they only have 1.2 thousand members then only that amount have asked to be represented, if they had 20 thousand then they would represent them as such. Ballots, discussions, nominations and questions would be broader and more diverse if more joined. What I think the trust need to do is entice people like you RV into joining getting a more varied types of supporters different opinions, healthy debates. @ Sadie If I have got a point that I want to make to the Club, I pick up the phone and speak to someone, or else I e mail the relevant manager at the Club. I have done so for at least 25 years. It wasn't so long ago at Charlton that you could phone and ask for a chat with the then chairman (R.Alwen) and be put through to him. Many fans don't need a bunch of self important middle aged farts to speak up for them, or purport to. We can do it for ourselves. As for the numbers and CAST being representative, you are simply wrong. I like to think that despite the Murray Disaster there are still 40,000 people out there who call themselves "Charlton fans". CAST speaks for less than 5% of them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2014 11:01:14 GMT
Prague Addick now seems to be calling Richard Murray a liar. I think we all know that Murray in the past has often been guilty of being economical with the actualite. But I no longer care about these ghastly people as the seat of power has changed hands. I just wish all these self-important middle-aged has-been non-entities would please take their egos and agendas and bickering elsewhere and leave RD, Katrien and Riga to get on with the job! What I don't really get is that you clearly care so little about them that you still decide to go and read what he/they say and then come running back here to resurrect an old thread just so you can tell people how you no longer care. You can surely see how that may look a bit strange to some can't you, an intelligent fella like you. Let it go man. Nothing strange in wanting them to shut up because their constant bickering and attacks on the club are souring the atmosphere and preventing us from all pulling together, surely? And the reference to no longer caring about these people was specifically to Murray because he is now an irrelevance "as the seat of power has changed hands" (twice over, as it happens - so why is he still around ?) But at least Murray these days has the sense to keep his trap shut. If only his erstwhile camp followers would follow suit. That's my view, if it is all right with you, offit. Sorry I forgot to check with you first!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2014 12:29:58 GMT
CAST are not only undemocratic & unrepresentative - please add "dishonest" as well. Undemocratic - who elected them to their positions? When was the ballot ? Who took part ? How many voted ? Where is the evidence? Unrepresentative - despite the widespread publicity their stunts have attracted, they still have less than 5% of Charlton's supporter base on their membership list. Dishonest - when they recruited members last year, they blatantly lured the gullible by calling out "sign here if you want to stop coucil flats being built on the Valley"- a brazen whopper told to boost membership numbers. I saw this with my own eyes at the CAST stand behind the Covered End. It was subsequently admitted by the CAST politburo and Dear Leader For Life Kim Yong Raz. Thanks for that RV. Here's some facts and an alternative view. 1. The board was approved by the SGM that established the Trust, and then formally by a quorate SGM in June 2013. I am uncertain as to the process regarding changes, presumably AGMs, but the board members/officers would be elected for a minimum of 12 months anyway. Meeting minutes are published in the members' section on the website (although it is fair to observe that the SGM minutes are noted as pending). Accounts are published there too, fyi. 2. The Trust can only seek to be representative, which is evidenced in the high volume of surveys they have conducted to date and available for all fans to complete. If fans choose not to participate that's up to them, but that's one mechanism by which a voice can be heard. Another, of course, is through being a subscriber, or even more so by being a member. 3. Estimates of Charlton's supporter base are just that - estimates. Notwithstanding if you were to go by the number of season ticket holders, for example, members would perhaps be in the 10-15% bracket, which is usually deemed to be a representative sample. The fanbase is of course wider than that - perhaps there are 20,000 on the club's mailing list? - but then there are also those who are Trust subscribers without being paid members. 4. The more Charlton fans who are members, the more representative the Trust will become. We can stand on the sidelines and complain, but the solution is within our gift - it's up to us to make the difference. If you don't like Barnie, join up and vote him out. 5. I think dishonest is a bit strong (as is your personal abuse of the chair). I agree that they were a little misleading in their headlines regarding the ACV, and I and others challenged them directly on this. You can see this on a CL thread if you want to search for it, and I can tell you I made private representations to more than one board member on that issue. It was clearer in the body of the supporting text and they did subsequently back off a little on the headlines. I'll repeat what I've said many times. I think an organisation seeking to represent all supporters is a good thing. On the assumption they will represent the majority view, and on the evidence and in my own personal conversations with them they're genuinely trying to do this, this is democracy in action. They're not perfect, not by any means, but the will is there and the structure is there. It's also very early days for them, it's one of the youngest trusts out there and without any real issue they've done exceptionally well in terms of their membership numbers (take a look at other Trust memberships if you want to put it into context). They will evolve and this will best be achieved by people joining them. The more that join them, the more likely they are to be representative. Those that stand on the sidelines and whinge risk their voice not being heard. Finally, no individual should expect any organised body - particularly one seeking to be democratic - to represent their own personal views 100%. They will look to represent the majority. That's realistic, and it's right.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2014 12:36:45 GMT
If I have got a point that I want to make to the Club, I pick up the phone and speak to someone, or else I e mail the relevant manager at the Club. I have done so for at least 25 years. It wasn't so long ago at Charlton that you could phone and ask for a chat with the then chairman (R.Alwen) and be put through to him. Many fans don't need a bunch of self important middle aged farts to speak up for them, or purport to. We can do it for ourselves. Well yes - but then you're only seeking to represent your own view there RV aren't you. And I wonder what significant changes to the club's direction have occurred in 25 years because one fan called the chairman? I'd say none, because a lone voice is just that - and I'm sure you're not deluding yourself that even Roger Alwen saw you as more than that. An organised body seeking to represent the fans can be much more influential - and the more people in its membership, the more influential it will be.
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